Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.
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«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 290 Newer› Newest»It would be a shame if those lavish homes in Brookline (Klein) and NYC (Gans) got cockroaches, wouldn't it? So tough to get rid of.
There were some comments from earlier this month (Oct., 2011) that characterized Joseph Stillwell's business practices as "sleazy." Can you be more specific: dates, facts, alleged actions, records? Clarification will help build the case, if there is one.
The legal authorities do not care about anyone's pain or outrage, or about any accuser's subjective charactizations of behavior, only about actionable, verifiable violations of the law.
An excerpt from Anthony Lane's review of "Martha Mary May Marlene", a film about a cult, the effects of a cult, and escape from a cult:
"Like any good cult leader, he is a terrifying parody of a father figure, intent on making his kin feel at home. He has them fed, housed, and warmly encouraged--'You're my favorite, and I won't lose you,' he tells Martha. He also rapes them."
See the full article, from The New Yorker, at http://nyr.kr/pF72SJ
Sound familiar?
Not only does that sound familiar, I was also struck by the following:
"what a cult requires, apart from a master and his slaves, is time—the chance ... for a private crime to become a way of life."
and
"Even when the cult members get some free play of their own, in the shape of an orgy, what stays with you is the narrowed eyes of Patrick, as he watches from the foot of the stairs, pulling invisible strings."
This latter seems to shed new light for me on the manipulation of relationships within the group. Perhaps it is not just about power as such, but also a kind of voyeurism, giving Sharon a perverse sexual pleasure.
And in terms of time, it is clear that the longer one is in the group, the harder it is to even contemplate leaving, even when the falsehoods are perfectly obvious.
Thank you for posting the link!
Since we're on the subject of cults, here is the url to that New Yorker magazine article from February of this year, about Scientology. It ends with the following sentence -- "He thought for a moment, then said, “I was in a cult for thirty-four years. Everyone else could see it. I don’t know why I couldn’t.”
Full article, from The New Yorker: http://nyr.kr/hlezx5
Everyone finds their own path of healing. Now, in the mysterious way these things unfold in each of us, I sense that it's time for a new chapter in my own path.
During the past year, my own quest for truth and understanding has driven me -- and "driven" is the word -- to reach out to 59 people who have left the Horn/Gans/Klein group. Ten have not responded at all. Fifteen have been e-mail exchanges, ranging from cursory to extensive. Eleven have been telephone relationships. And 23 have been face-to-face conversations.
During this "chapter," I've broken my own inner god-will-strike-me-dead conditioning against speaking freely about my time and experience in "school." And from the conversations, I've learned a lot about this thing called "school," some of it so disturbing I literally could not get off the couch the next day. There have been a lot of well-at-least-there's-nothing-bad-left-to-hear moments, followed of course by some horrific new set of revelations.
A close friend of mine in the "exile" community used the analogy of a train wreck to frame this kind of obsession-with-"school" experience. She said, "At first, we can't stop ourselves from staying at the site of the train wreck, mesmerized by the gruesome carnage, the wreckage, the flames. We know it's probably not good to stare, but we just can't stop looking. And then, eventually, we don't need to look anymore. And we can move on."
I plan to keep posting here and elsewhere, as I need to. But maybe -- maybe -- this particular chapter is coming to a close. Which means a new one may be opening...
To One Door Closes, Another Opens:
Glad to hear you have been so active in connecting with people and validating your experience as well as jump-starting recovery through connection with the like-minded. Don't know if I was one of the 59, but give me a shout at aandg88@gmail.com if you like.
My School Story-Part One-By Cayce
Hi All, I have a lot to share and I don't want to waste an hour or two typing only to find my info never made its way on to the web, so I'll simply send this short initial post to see if it shows up.
I met a woman named Roseann Pascale (I hope names are allowed, but if they're not just put "R") in NYC at East-West Books by Washington Square Park on 03/15/88. This is memorable to me because I wrote the lyrics to a future song the next day in work and entitled it "Ides Of March" because of the incredible impression she made upon me. She introduced me to a 4th Way School where Fred & Minerva were the teachers.
MUCH MORE to come if this shows up!
My School Story-Part Two-By Cayce
OK, so far so good! 1st off let me say I had no knowledge whatsoever about Gurdjieff, Ouspensky or 4th Way Teachings prior to meeting Roseann. I had, however, read many of the Carlos Castenada books. My teachers spoke of these works in class and proclaimed them as a valid form of 4th Way teachings.
Before I go further into this I wish to assert that I did not have to press any sort of legal agreement buttons to post on this page. ANYONE is free to quote me if they wish. Futhermore, I reserve the right to use my own words printed here should I choose at some point to write about these matters in a book. Please forgive my paranoia, but I figure "better safe than sorry" in a legal sense. John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival was sued for his song "The Old Man Down The Road" when they said it was stolen from "Run Through The Jungle" by the same group. John Fogerty wrote both songs! How do you steal from yourself? This is where the lawyers come in. I've recently read that teacher Fred was a lawyer, and that now "School" is employing some of the same lawyers used by Scientology against websites like the one I'm writing on, so please bear with me.
Now to be fair, I had a rather positive school experience, but I was only under this school experience "OFFICIALLY" for about 75 days. This included about 30 days that Roseann spent aggressively recruiting me, and another month and a half I actually spent in the school, itself, before deciding to leave of my own volition.
I believe my relatively short stay, and then my INTENSE study into every written work by Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, and their students gives me a unique view of this whole matter. Someone never there could never understand. Someone there too long is quite possibly too tainted to see things clearly. Give me a bit of time to share the things I want to share and I think most of you will be thanking me.
I will do what I can on these pages, but I really need an entire book to do this story justice.
I'll start off with some recent juicy stuff so you don't think I'm just trying to string you along.
Like I said, I had a mostly positive school experience. But after 23 years I felt the urge to see if I could track down this AMAZING woman I had met to ask her some questions. Now I hate to digress, but at this point I have to ask you readers a question. This school's bible is "In Search Of The Miraculous", and yet I read book after book by former students and can't think of a single sentence by any of them that refers to anything miraculous. The only thing I can think of offhand is Ouspensky's own talk of G. speaking to him telepathically as O. was riding on a train. While I had this book in school, I have to admit that I only read the chapters as needed by school assignment. I never read of this miraculous telepathy until I was long out of school.
Having said that, I would never have joined such a group without ample proof that they had something to offer. Roseann was, in fact, the second attempt to induct me. A year or so prior to meeting her some guy and woman approached me on a street corner just outside the 8th or 9th St Path Train station. Forgive me, I left the NYC area in 97 so I may get a bit sketchy on minor details. I remember she said she was a clown for a living. Maybe that might mean something to someone reading this. They arranged to meet me and maybe half a dozen other folks they spoke with that night at a place on the Lower East Side, but it was closed a few days later when we all got there, so we all went to Smoke Stax Lightning on Canal Street (all the time getting closer to the school building). It was a rather unpleasant experience. I don't really remember but there were maybe 4 school reps. One was a guy that struck me as the worst type of E.S.T. (Erhardt Seminar Training) trainer I had read of that just tried to bully & intimidate everyone into joining.
My School Story-Part Three-By Cayce
What a Fuckin' effort to get that last part published, just as I feared. Why can't these sites just tell you up front the letter limit?
Anyway, I'll make them shorter. And continue where I left off:
One was a guy that struck me as the worst type of E.S.T. trainer I had read of that just tried to bully & intimidate everyone into joining. Of maybe 8 of us, I think one agreed to attend a future class. I actually felt bad for the gentler women reps. Everyone else had left but the school people & there was a bill for about 80 bucks. Even though I only had one beer I threw them 10 bucks to help with the bill.
Having said that, to make a long story short, Roseann had thoroughly convinced me that she was fluently telepathic. I would never believe such a thing today considering all the info you can get on anybody off the web. But at that time I had never even touched a computer (remember we're talking about 1988!). Next I'll tell you what happened when I tried to contact "The Most Loving, Compassionate Being I'd ever met in my entire life after 23 years. Won't be too surprised if I hear from her lawyer before I get a chance to post tomorrow.
From my experiences, I believe NYC is a REAL school. From what I have been reading on the web, I believe it is a corrupt school. I have run into genuine telepaths here and there throughout the course of my life. I used to naively think that all telepaths would be of one universal mind and be in a state of agreement. With time I have come to find it is just like comparing the literate with the illiterate. Obviously literate people have an advantage over illiterate people, but nobody would presuppose ALL literate people to be in accord on any matter. Enuf for now.
My School Story-Part Four-By Cayce
Just something to give you all a little heart, a song by Eleanor McEvoy, "Easy To Lose Hope" which you can likely find on "Half.com" for about 75 cents for the entire album/CD (called "Snapshots). If you can find the song elsewhere for free, all the better!
Easy To Lose Hope
My home town's dear to me, it's always in my sight
But my city's shadows walk around in broad daylight
They'll even shoot a woman down for what she writes
So now you pay for civil liberty with life
So hard it's easy to lose hope for everyone
So bad it's easier to never take it on
But we can't give up
And we can't lose hope
And we cannot hide away
We can overcome
But we must be strong
And we must not be afraid
You must not ever stop the search for peace within
'Cause if you find it, there's no better prize to win
In losing peace of mind you're losing everything
Don't draw away from it whatever shape you're in
So hard it's easy to lose hope for everyone
So bad it's easier to never take it on
But we can't give up
And we can't lose hope
And we cannot hide away
We can overcome
But we must be strong
And we must not be afraid
With all our songs and stories we have brushed aside
The very nature of a beast we tried to hide
With all the ugliness this city has to fight
How could we leave it to a mother and a wife?
So hard it's easy to lose hope for everyone
So bad it's easier to never take it on
But we can't give up
And we can't lose hope
And we cannot hide away
We can overcome
But we must be strong
And we must not be afraid
We must not be afraid
We must not be afraid
But we can't give up
And we can't lose hope
And we cannot hide away
We can overcome
But we must be strong
And we must not be
We must not be afraid
We must not be afraid
Enuf for now, buy it cheap or find it free. The song is based on the story of Veronica Guerin. She was an Irish TV reporter not content with doing fluff pieces on local cupcake sales. She went after the REAL people selling heroin in her community and she died for it. But she wasn't afraid. I'm not, are you? See DVD Veronica Guerin
My School Story-Part Five- By Cayce
I remember how Roseann would shake/turn her head suddenly from side to side; like a dog we watch and realize it's trying to make its mind up about something. When I got to "School" I saw my teacher, Fred, doing the same thing. I have often witnessed friends unconsciously imitating others that they admired. Was Roseann imitating her "hero" or was she "communicating" with him?
At the risk of losing all credibility here, I have already made it clear that I believe Roseann was fluently telepathic. I am equally aware of the fact that Gurdjieff taught some of his students how to fool people into believing them to be telepathic when they weren't by reading body language and such.
Before I forget, let me mention the two packs of Winston cigarettes that were always placed on the table by his chair, along with an ashtray. Of course there was also the fruit bowl placed between Fred & Minerva. Perhaps I'll pass along the description of this whole procession I sent to Michael Savage some time back.
If there is time/room I remember an Asian woman about 20 yrs old that stood up and told us about the cancer she had been diagnosed with. I immediately procured the name and Tel Ph # for Dr. Emamuel Rivici. On the very next school day I made it a point to grab her as we were leaving class. I broke school rules and spoke to her going down the steps. An older student sternly warned me this was not permitted. I GLARED at him and he shut up. The funny thing, however, was that this girl was so surprised! She seemed to have no idea whatsoever that anybody knew about her illness!!! Can you say hypnotism?
My School Story-Part Six-By Cayce
Guess I better get to some pertinent facts before...
I looked up Roseann Pascale on the internet. When I met her she told me she was a film producer. She gave me her business card. I called the number once while I was in school. I spoke with her then.
After leaving school I tried calling the same number many years later but they claimed no knowledge of her.
Then after 23 years I wanted to ask her some questions, silly as it might seem I wanted to ask her how much she got for recruiting me. Did she get 10%? 20%? 25%?
I wanted to know if she got a percentage for every recruit!
She had also given me three separate sheets of her hand written script (she had told me she was just learning to write script) which were haiku type poems.
She disobeyed the rules.
I got 2 threatening calls from a woman at (609)886-7008 on 10/17/11 one at 12:48 pm, and the next at 12:49 pm. Basically saying don't contact or follow Roseann Pascale or you'll be liable to legal action. On my receiver I got the name "MALKENTZOS"
She also called me from her home, apparently, as I got a Ph msg that read: R Pascale (954)240-3836 on 10/17/11 at 4:49pm
She also called me from (754)779-9998 on 10/17/11 at 4:07pm (or had someone else call.)
I only make these numbers available in case others find them bothering you, too. PLEASE do not actually call and bother these people.
My School Story-Part Seven_By Cayce
Any suggestions on a better site to post so my words will be read?
Your words have definitely been read and I am totally fascinated to learn more.
I was in that NY class the same time that you were. There were so many people in those days who came and went. People were there for a couple of months and then left and others came. I remember at the first Christmas class I helped with there were over 100 students and when I left there were about 50 if that many.
Roseann left school a long long time ago after being kicked out in a very nasty way by Sharon.
It was a particularly evil encounter. I can understand that after that she might not be interested in speaking with anyone from school. There were so many people who were damaged by Sharon and she is probably still dealing with that (or not dealing with it as the case may be.) Sharon also placed the fear of God in people so she might be frightened.
Area codes 754 and 954 are the area codes for Broward County, Florida. Area code 609, is located in southeastern and central New Jersey.
I know who the clown was. The oriental woman with cancer was a very dear dear friend of mine who died about 13 years ago. I used to work at Smoke Stacks Lightening...
My School Story-Part Eight-By Cayce
TY for your reply, Joy. Roseann is now in Hollywood, FL. Now, while I can't be 100% sure this is the exact same Roseann I met it sure as hell looked like her. I found her on Linked In.com which is kind of a "My Space" for professionals. She is still producing film. Her latest work being on "Miami Ink", a reality show about tattoos/body art. As soon as I requested her to communicate with me on the LinkedIn page she had her photo removed. I was only told by Linked In that one of 15 possible people had read my request. She was one of the possibilities. I also found her on Twitter with another photo. Both photos and accounts have disappeared since I contacted her.
Allow me to say here that for 23 yrs I viewed my school experience as a sacred trust and have only spoken to any degree about it with a very select few, and even then I never used actual names except with my wife. When I found myself being threatened this past Monday ala Scientology I considered the gloves off.
Now keep in mind the Roseann I found might not be the right one, but I'm 95% sure it is.
And I used no paid services to get a wealth of info on her, it was all free for ANYONE to find. Assuming she is the same Roseann, I find it very interesting that she constantly tweets supporting the "Occupy Wall Street" movements around the country. Anyone with half a brain can see how this group is rapidly being taken over by Jew Haters! I see/hear them every day. Equating the Rich with Bankers, equating the Bankers with Jewishness, equating the Jews with controlling the world. In grammar school I learned this as The Transitive Property Of Equality (if A = B, and B = C, then A = C). The funny part of this proposition is, if the mindless masses are going to kill all the Rich/Jews because they control a disproportionate % of the wealth, WHAT THE HELL DO YA THINK IS GONNA HAPPEN WHEN THESE MINDLESS MASSES START TO REALIZE THAT LESS THAN ONE TENTH OF ONE PERCENT OF THE POPULATION IS TELEPATHIC AND THEREFORE EXERCISES A VASTLY UNFAIR ADVANTAGE OVER THE REST OF THE PEOPLE? Remember what they used to do to witches?
My School Story-Part Nine- By Cayce
Along the line of the East-West Bookstore in NYC, I'm sure most readers remember how "School" students would regularly visit book stores that carried works by Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Nicoll, Collin, etc. and place a small thin strip of paper within its pages that contained a phone number to reach a "School" contact. If the idiot's reading about schools he's probably dying to find one.
And don't be too quick to criticize me for referring to the seeker as an "idiot", Gurdjieff did this on a daily basis with his toasts at the dinner table.
"Here's to the Zig-zag idiots!"
He had a shitload of adjectives to put in front of of the word "idiot".
And when some of you became disillusioned with the system after MANY YEARS, did you remember G, himself, referred to it as "The Way Of The Sly Man" and that in his own autobiography he told you he caught sparrows, then painted them yellow, and then sold them as canaries?
In my humble opinion it is a valid system, but ONLY if you have ethical teachers. Even in work writings you learn that a man might attain a certain advanced level unjustly. He may become Man Number Five, but then it will become IMPOSSIBLE for him to advance any further.
And I apologize for the last two paragraphs. It is so easy to make fun of those caught up for a long time...there but for the Grace of God go I...please forgive me.
Can anyone tell me if there was ever a monetary commission awarded to students for bringing in new recruits? For instance, I paid $300 a month to attend school. To your knowledge did Roseann, the woman who recruited me, get like a 10 per cent kickback or something? I just find it so hard to believe people spent so much time and energy for free, or was the reward just promised essence/soul growth?
I applaud you for taking the time to share your experience about "school." You have raised a number of important points, to which I want to respond. I'm going to do that in several posted comments here, to focus on different aspects of what you shared.
As full disclosure, my own objectives when participating on esotericfreedom are 1) to further my own healing; 2) to raise awareness about the actual nature of this "school," for those once involved but still affected by it; 3) to help those still "in" make tough decisions about leaving; and 4) to contribute to the building of legally-actionable cases against leaders of the group.
Sharon Gans' students never placed bookmarks in books in bookstores.
Robert Burton, a one time "student" of Alex Horn's, founded the Fellowship of Friends in 1970. Sometimes known as Renaissance or Apollo or the Gurdjieff-Ouspensky Centers, students were instructed to place promotional bookmarks in relevant books at bookstores and libraries.
For more information on the Fellowship of Friends, see:
http://www.rickross.com/groups/fof.html
And about an interesting spin-off from Robert Burton that sounds very much like Sharon and Alex's school: http://www.fourthwaycult.net/
To the best of my knowledge, no student has ever received a monetary "reward" for recruiting new students. That's just not the way the system works.
Even "teachers" do not receive much money for what they do - it is a nominal amount. ALL of the money goes directly to Sharon. Not even the orphans get a cut.
This is Part II of my response to Cayce:
In my experience, there are all sorts of reasons why people who were once affiliated with "school" don't want to talk with me. 1) It may bring back painful memories they would rather forget. 2) The whole "school" experience may not occupy as much space in their personal history as it does in mine. 3) They may have spouses who know nothing of this part of their life, and be in relationships whose marital stability depends on keeping that part of their life undisclosed. 4) They may not know my motive in contacting them, and fear either some sort of "luring-back-in" agenda, or some silly sentimentality about something that for them "never was."
When I flip the coin, there are a number of people from "school" whose contact would be most unwelcome to me. I have such people "blocked" on Facebook, email, and other such forums. There are some cases where the distrust is so strong, on my part, that I would consider legal measures (such as contacting the police, or even restraining orders) should these individuals contact me.
I'm not clear if you feel this Roseann person owes you some sort of closure, or even a response of any kind. She may feel differently about you than you do about her. That is, if she remembers any of her experiences at that time.
This is Part III of my response to Cayce:
"Telepathy" -- in the sense of para-normally developed powers of emotional cognition -- is a real phenomenon, in my personal opinion.
In my own experience with the Sharon Gans "school," however, your descriptions of "telepathy" correspond to what is -- in "cult studies" literature (Robert Lifton, et al.) sometimes called "orchestrated reality." The Gans school practiced this to a high degree.
Orchestrated reality relies on a certain theatrical instinct, some elaborate behind-the-scenes logistics, and the all-important "willingness to believe."
As I think you know, the founders of the Horn/Gans/Klein school began in theatre. Extravagant gestures, dramatic pronouncements, and an almost fetishized celebration of "teacher" intuition were part of the group's "culture," which did not change much in the nearly 20 years I was there.
The display of apparent "telepathic" exchange in class between "teacher" and "student" actually depended on elaborate, secret lines of communication that were as calculated as a good magician's sleight-of-hand. As just one example of many, young-student "sustainers" were expected to submit weekly written reports on their charges, following an exact outline: progress on aims, situation in each of the "three stories", feedback from class discussions, and questions about "the knowledge." These reports were in turn used to anticipate lines of student questioning about either "knowledge" or "personal issues.
Put simply, if you or I were privy to the same information, we might come across as clairvoyant, too.
The last element was a deep, spirtually-motivated desire to believe in matters beyond the senses among the "students," to believe in "levels of being" and "degrees of development", which made for a receptive audience.
All of these elements were orchestrated on a regular basis to sustain a dream.
Cayce,
I can confirm what Ashiata Shiemash said about financial inducements to recruit: There were none, for anyone involved, all the way up the line.
One of the frequently repeated lies, most often told by Gans herself, was that all that was being asked of a recruiter was the willingness "to buy a cup of coffee."
This could hardly be farther from the truth. Recruiting for the group was onerous work -- time-consuming, emotionally exhausting, and financially draining. Those who did it were subject to constantly changing goals and deadlines, and worked in fear of verbal lashings, occasionally relieved by flattery. Lying about one's efforts was reportedly widespread.
If you look at the history of the group, from San Francisco onward to the present, the "pressure to produce" -- in the form of ticket sales to plays, or new students -- has never varied.
From Amazed and Grateful:
To Cayce:
I concur with the suggestion that PERHAPS this woman wants to keep an unpleasant experience in the past.
Who really knows, but were I in her shoes, I would be unnerved or possibly frightened to discover that someone was so focused on finding me - calling previous employers, etc.
If you have questions about how things operated in this false school, you have a wealth of experience right here on this site to satisfy your questions.
Since this woman was in the group for such a short time, it's not likely she's have the answers you are looking for anyway.
Thanks for your posts.
Ah, yes, lying about one's efforts...
I think this had to be true for almost everyone. The pressure could be so phenomenal especially on top of trying to live one's life as well.
Who didn't scribble down an observation 10 minutes before walking into class just so they would have something to say if asked? It might have been a made-up observation or one from days or weeks before that you hadn't written down. Or you jusy pretended and made one up on the spot in class or used an old one that you thought people wouldn't remember...
People who were "on my list" for the third line of work of bringing new students? Well, there was this one woman who I used to meet in a dark Japanese bar for sake. We would talk for hours (we were only supposed to meet for an hour - excusing ourselves as if we had important places to go and people to see) but I never brought up anything about school. She was on my list for a long time. After awhile I just made up stories about meeting with her.
And how many times did we go out with "partners" and we would just sit in a bar and drink - never even approaching anyone to start a conversation. Both of us sitting there complicit in our decision to report that yes, we had gone out an tried but alas and alack, we had no luck.
How many times did I make up illnesses that I didn't have so I could call the late line and say that I was sick and couldn't come to class?
How many partnerships did I have with other students (we were supposed to speak to each other at least 3 times a week about our progress on our "aims") where we barely spoke once a week or spoke maybe once or twice in the five week period? And how many times did I lie to my partner about where I was on my "five week aim"? Or the CR partners that I never spoke to at all?
How many times did I keep quiet while a teacher or an older student was "bashing" someone and I didn't agree with what they were saying? How many times did I chime in and condemn someone just because everyone else in the room was doing it?
There's more too...
I have a question about people staying in the group. I met someone at a conference and told him about the group, and as I described it, he said, "I know the group you're talking about. (He had been to a lecture given by Robert on Van Gogh-- that was his recollection.) I was recruited for it." He never joined, but said a friend of his was in it and really enjoyed the teachings. He said this friend didn't have the money to pay tuition. Do people know if some are permitted to stay (for whatever reason-- maybe they have knowledge the leaders want) without paying tuition? This is in the Boston group.
Thank you.
Chris,
The short answer to your question is "yes" -- people were allowed to stay without paying, for a number of reasons, including their ability to bring some other kind of contribution to "school." Others were given ultimatums. Additionally, some wealthy students were regularly tapped for substantial additional "gifts," in order to make special "school" efforts/projects happen, or simply in order to keep certain parts of the enterprise going.
Some case examples, all based on direct conversation with the participants, all from New York:
Case 1: Woman, 10+ years in "school": "I decided I wasn't going to pay tuition anymore. So for the last two years there, I just stopped paying. And nobody ever bothered me about it. I wonder if they were so desperate not to lose people that they stopped pushing people."
Case 2: Man, 15+ years "in": "I had some ugly scenes at the end about it. Because of the recession, my income had gone away. I told them I didn't have the money to pay. They used a gas station metaphor, 'When you go to the gas station, you pay for the gas, right? It's the same thing here. So you FIND a way! Take out a second mortgage, do whatever you have to.' I left not long after that."
Case 3: Man , 20+ years: "At the 15-year mark, another man and I were told, separately, that in consideration of our efforts, we would no longer have to pay tuition. Instead, we should be mindful of 'paying in a different coin.' This other man and I were very heavily committed, in terms of time and responsibility. It was a kind of scholarship, I suppose."
Case 4: Man, 20+ years. "I brought the subject up to teachers at the end, because it did not feel right to me that I should continue when I could no longer afford to pay. There were some different responses at different levels of the organization, but the main response was 'Solve it! Tap your savings, tap your retirement, but solve it.' Well, I had already burned through all my savings and retirement. So I left."
Keep asking questions, Chris.
My School Story-Part Ten-By Cayce
Very much appreciate all the replies.
I couldn't help but notice when I 1st arrived how "White" the class was. There was only 1 fellow 1/2 Black, 1/2 White named Daniel. He drove a taxi in NYC. He was a very sweet guy, but no rocket scientist. In school parlance I guess you would say he was mostly in essence, as opposed to personality. I remember Minerva entered one time looking quite stunningly beautiful. Dark floor-length dress, long straight dark hair, almost appearing as if no feet were moving underneath her, like she was effortlessly gliding to her chair. Daniel, thinking out loud muttered under his breath, "such beautiful breasts!" and I heard him and he had voiced my exact thought. Not implying any telepathy here, just a random school memory.
While I wasn't trying to memorize names, some you just couldn't help, like a young man named John Condom, a new recruit just before I left.
I know a young male dental assistant started the same day as me. He was assigned the task of telling a joke at every class meeting. I remember being jealous because he was also another Roseann recruit. She did tell explicitly on our 3rd or 4th meeting that "this is not a 'romantic' thing" which I very much appreciated. I always found her to be exceedingly honest as I was well aware of some groups, ie., The Moonies, that employed "Flirty Fishing" whereby sex was used as an indoctrination tool.
BTW, for Anonymous who said "since this woman was in the group for such a short time" she was in School for years. When I asked her how she came to be in School she just said, "I was very, very lucky."
My School Story-Part 11-By Cayce
I remember so much of my Roseann/School experience so clearly, often word for word, that I find it quite curious when I can't remember something. (Remember I told of the Asian woman who volunteered to the class publicly that she was just diagnosed with cancer, yet when I approached her with a doctor's name & Ph # she seemed stupefied & surprised that I even knew about her condition). For example, one time we had to watch a film in School, so the lights were turned out. For the life of me I can barely remember a thing about it. Something about planets. Maybe how the Moon was not yet a SUN, and so was dependent upon the Sun to illuminate it at this time, just as the students were dependent upon the teachers to illuminate them til they developed sufficiently to glow with their own inner Knowledge.
Sometime back I found someone else commenting on this on the web, and he or she said they noticed the teacher staring at the students intently as the movie played as to gauge how they were being affected.
Maybe this was nothing but me falling asleep during a boring film in the dark after a long day's work, or maybe we have a bit of...forgive me, I'm drawing a blank on the term...oh yeah, subliminal programming, like when movie theaters used to add a "BUY SOME POPCORN" to every 30th frame on the film projector so it wasn't up there long enuff for you to pick up consciously, but a significant amount of viewers bought some popcorn!
Anyway, I've always found this blank in my memory quite odd. Perhaps I'm making too much out of nothing. I would VERY MUCH appreciate any input from you readers if this "presses any buttons" for you.
Also, I have so much to say it's hard to know which matter to dwell on next. While I can't guarantee an answer, I'd be more than happy to entertain any question.
Which reminds me, I was very attached to my teachers, Fred & Minerva, and I'd find myself feeling very resentful when they weren't there. I remember they were replaced 1 day or week by some little schmuck that smoked a pipe with brown hair & beard. Kinda the stereotypical college prof or Psychiatrist that would always try to seem aloof at parties with an air of superiority when they really just had no self-confidence. He answered all student questions in the Socratic method, ie., "Well, Bill, why do YOU think that is?" While I recognize value in the Socratic method to teach folks to think for themselves, I got the impression he was just a lazy S.O.B.!
My School Story-Part 12-By Cayce
Obviously I came to this Thread by viewing The Fred Mindel page on EsotericFreedom.com. In all honesty I can't say for sure that the pics I see are the "Fred" I saw in School. He's much older now, apparently 71 yrs old. In 1988 he had much more of a Phil Donahue look (while he was still competition to Oprah), tho probably taller & somewhat slimmer than Phil. Now the white/gray hair is combed straight back. As I said my teacher Fred was always treated like a God, having two packs of Winston cigarettes awaiting him. If that fits in with your memories we are most likely talking about the same person.
Actually, the closest thing I ever witnessed to a "gang-up" by older students against younger ones was when a guy who came in shortly after me suggested that it might be highly irresponsible for teachers to promote smoking cigarettes by example. I couldn't remember his name, but suddenly as I dwell on this "Charles" is what comes up. He had recently broken up with a long time girlfriend and I spoke with him before one class and recommended Bob Dylan's album, "Blood On The Tracks" as music he could listen to that would help his heart heal. (The album deals in incredibly personal ways with Dylan's break up with Sara, his wife of 17 yrs).
Fred went on to spiel some BS about Hydrogens, and how because of his understanding of Hydrogens he couldn't be hurt by smoking.
I'm quite serious when I say I remember most of this School experience word for word!
Now I fully admit I'm almost guessing here (names have always been my bane), but I think Cynthia might be the name of the woman who stocked the Fred/Minerva tables with cigarettes/ashtrays/fruit bowls, etc. This woman was in large part responsible for me leaving school. She never said two words to me. Maybe I'll go into this later when other facts have been filled in.
Cayce,
Was this on the NE corner of Broadway and Franklin?
Upstairs on the rickety elevator?
Or were you across the street on the other side of Broadway between Franklin and Leonard on the 2nd Floor?
"...Fred went on to spiel some BS about Hydrogens, and how because of his understanding of Hydrogens he couldn't be hurt by smoking...."
Hilarious. What a moron.
Who cares about the second-hand smoke affecting your students, right?
(and I'm a smoker, so I'm not just spouting general "holier-than-though nonsmoker attitude" It's...at the very least...about manners.)
I supposed Fred was above those as well.
Ok, I'll bite...
How did Cynthia get you to leave school?
How long were you in school?
My School Story-Part13-By Cayce
1st off let me apologize for not starting this whole thing under its own subject heading, but this "Steve Jobs" thing was the 1st area I found that had a box to post comments on. And for any grammatical sticklers, yeah, I know it's improper to end a sentence with a preposition.
To answer some of Veronica's questions, I suppose it must have been the NE corner of B'way & Franklin, a block or 2 below Canal St. There was a pizza place on the corner. I met Roseann there before my 1st class. We took an elevator up but left by the stairs. It was probably the 4th or 5th floor. The windows facing the street must have been close to 10 ft tall. It was a huge loft filled with bleachers for the students to sit on. At one point the teachers requested us to each personally make a cushion with something personally meaningful on it to be left there permanently. Believe you were not meant to use your own cushion, but sit on someone Else's. While I never actually counted them, I'd guesstimate 10 or 12 bleachers. In the back of the room was a giant coffee urn with the restroom beyond it. I never ventured to the far end (no caffeine for me, TY) but they may have kept some cookies there for the low blood sugar attacks. My dad spent the second half of his life as a devoted AA member and I went with him to a meeting while visiting him in Boston in 1974. Apparently both groups existed on cigarettes, sugar & caffeine.
As to how long I was in School, see my Part Two, paragraphs 3 & 4.
I once caught myself mentally taking note that Roseann was wearing a matching skirt and blazer she'd previously worn and it struck me as, to use one of her favorite words, a rather "petty" observation, so I punished myself by wearing the exact same clothes to every class meeting. Some of you may even remember the blue Seattle Seahawks jersey with Curt Warner's name and number (28).
My School Story-Part 14-By Cayce
When I 1st started I think we met on Tues/Fri. Shortly after it was changed to Tues/Thur, supposedly because of students requesting Fri off so they could have a social life.
There was a fellow who started shortly after me with a full beard that always sat at the extreme left (coffee end)whose attitude was obviously skeptical, if not outright hostile toward the whole School thing for his 1st few classes. Then one day he stood up (you always had to stand to speak) and told the teachers his beloved cat had cancer and was going to die and he was absolutely broken hearted. One could easily see how hard he was working to not break into tears. After some compassionate words from the teachers & other students he was a changed man and never again had that negative attitude toward the work.
Altho we were encouraged to sit in a different spot at every class to avoid mechanicality, I sat almost always pretty much right in front of the teachers on the top row, or the one below it.
I hated the beginning of class which was the bodywork phase. Once we had to choose an animal to imitate & the whole class ran, or slithered, or whatever counter clockwise around the room. Another time we had to pair off with another student and try to mentally or energetically give him or her what we thought they needed.
While recruiting me Roseann had a few sentences she oft repeated, like "We pay for what we value, and we value what we pay for." I just took for granted all the recruits got these same lines.
Ashiata, I will take you at your word that this School did not put inserts into as yet unsold school books, perhaps some competing school did. But I found them constantly. About 1/8 in by 3 in like you'd find in a fortune cookie buried deep in the book by the spine replete with a phone number to contact some school.
My School Story-Part 15-By Cayce
While I am grateful for the "Orchestrated Reality" post and have no doubt it goes on, and did to some degree in my case too, I have to caution you against throwing the baby out with the bath water. Now I make no claim to be telepathic and in fact state outright that I'm not. However I assure you it is real. I have been fortunate enough to run into a few telepaths in the course of my life.
And it's OK, I understand. I really do. Even tho I know what I know I, myself, would still assume anyone trying to tell me about such an experience to most likely be mentally unbalanced at worst, or just genuinely fooled at best. That being said you can think whatever you like of me. Shades of "considering makes a man weak."
I'm reminded of the X Men film where the Professor says to the young girl, "Don't you know it's rude to read someone's mind without asking their permission first?" No one ever asked me.
I think some of the stuff in "Communion" by Whitley Streiber hits very close to the mark where he's got Aliens talking to abductees. IF the sender wills it, you'll be aware of the sex of that person, and if it is someone known to you you'll actually recognize their voice in your head. If it's a stranger, it's just an unknown voice. The slippery part is if they DON'T desire you to know you're being communicated with by an outside force. Then it comes across as your own internal dialog in your own internal voice. This is where it gets potentially abusive. While they can't make someone do something, ie., "Stab your husband!", if it is an innocuous suggestion, ie., "yeah, I think it's time for another cigarette" there is a great likelihood the person will, simply because the thought was in his head, therefore it must be his thought/desire.
I've often thought of the old cartoons with a devil and an angel on either shoulder. And if some living, flesh & blood beings can implant thoughts, by extension if life goes on after death theoretically some "disembodied" beings could still do it. But this tangent is taking us too far off topic. Enuf for now
My School Story-Part16-By Cayce
But I have been In Search Of The Miraculous all my adult life. I only met Roseann because they had recently rearranged the East-West Bookstore so that all the Alternative Medicine books were suddenly adjacent to the School texts. I was an incredibly vocal supporter of Homeopathic Medical treatment. I have a HUGE library on the subject. Most of the best books were written in the very late 1700's & 1800's. Most modern book are only of use to a complete neophyte. One notable exception being Michael Weiner's "The Complete Book Of Homeopathy". He is known to more people as Michael Savage of conservative talk radio.
I met Roseann not too long after breaking up with Joann. After she (J)moved in with me I learned she'd been Anorexic/Bulimic for 7 yrs. Anyone familiar with either condition knows they are incredibly difficult illnesses to successfully treat, often requiring long hospitalization and months/yrs of psychotherapy. I completely cured her in about 2 mos. with about 37 cents worth of Thuja Occidentalis (from the White Cedar tree).
Now the potencies I use have been deluted to such a point that it is mathematically impossible for there to be even one single molecule of the original herb left in them. So any cure must be placebo effect, right? Gotta be mind over matter. I have brought two of my cats back from the brink of death (no exaggeration here I swear) , even when the vet could do nothing for them. Do you think my powers of persuasion are so great that I can Bullshit an animal? BTW Thuja was her needed med. 10 other cases might require 10 different meds. No time to explain here.
My point is that the Miraculous is all around us if we but have eyes to see it!
BTW, when I saw Joann 7 yrs later she told me she never relapsed. The symptoms upon which I prescribed are a fascinating subject in and of themselves, but I already give you too much to read.
I'll confine myself to School topics in future posts.
My School Story-Part 17-By Cayce
While it may seem like I feel such great animosity toward this woman who introduced me to School, this is only since my attempt to contact her resulted in a Scientology-like legal threat type thing. And God bless the Southpark cartoon writers. I had researched Hubbard's group in depth long before I met Roseann and boy did they hit the nail on the head! And the only bucks they ever got off me was a $10.00 co-audit, tho I did spend a bit on their books for research.
But prior to this I honestly felt nothing but the deepest Love & Thankfulness whenever I thought of her over the years. It was not all that unusual for me to sometimes weep just thinking about her. Kinda like the quote, "For those that have experienced it, no explanation is necessary. For those that have not, no explanation is possible!" I hate to edit this down so much, but I can't go on at the length it deserves on this forum.
I met R for the 3rd X at the same Indian restaurant were we 1st arranged to meet after the book store. She was late & I had started pacing. When she got there she asked me what was wrong, you seem upset. We sat at a table and I stared right into her eyes and blurted out "YOU KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT ME!" My heart was beating a million fuckin' miles an hr. She answered "I don't know EVERYTHING about you" and her phrasing sounded like it was trying to calm me while betraying that she knew all the things I didn't want her to know. You know, all the shit we hide: jerkin' off or when ya used to pick your nose and eat it as a kid. We all have our own particular sins we feel we have to hide, and all for the same reason: IF PEOPLE KNEW HOW COULD I EVER HOPE TO BE LOVED! This is universal.
Anyway, I was so terrified like I've never been in my life. It's a wonder my heart didn't burst. And nothing could save me, or so I thought. But then an amazing thing happened: I was suddenly unmistakeably aware of the fact that she was feeling EVERYTHING I was feeling, experiencing EVERYTHING I was experiencing. And even tho I felt I couldn't save myself, I found it even more intolerable to think I was causing this poor women to have to endure this terror, this agony, and so to spare this innocent I had to force myself to calm down.
And I did.
After I started to calm down, our eyes never losing contact, she said, "I know where you are. I've been there!"
And then we had Indian Food. Hope my candor is not wasted here. I swear on both my parents' graves I'm not embellishing any of this in an attempt to entertain or...God knows what.
My School Story-Part 18-By Cayce
To answer Veronica's remaining question, "How did Cynthia get you to leave School?", my reply might be far less exciting than hoped for. Because of my pre-School experiences with Roseann I, rightly or wrongly, assumed that since R. was an advanced student, ALL the advanced students would probably be telepathic. Cynthia (if I do, in fact, have the right name), the woman that served up the cigarettes and snacks for the teachers, was in that advanced group. I at one point mentally compared her to Minerva:
Minerva=Stunningly Beautiful
Cynthia=Rather Plain, Maybe A Bit Of Acne
Now while I realize how silly this sounds, I was extremely concerned about hurting anyone's feelings with my Judgments. I thought my biggest hurdle once I started School would be worrying about all these "Scanners" (I used that term cos a movie had just come out with all these telepaths that could make people's heads explode) that could see all my dirty little secrets. Instead I found myself more concerned with hurting others unintentionally by these mental judgments. I figured if I couldn't control my own thoughts, I might just as well be walking around the class verbally assaulting my fellow students.
Hope that wasn't terribly anticlimactic.
And on my last day, at one point I had a thought of a sexual nature and immediately I heard a male voice in my head say "Why would you wanna do that?" It couldn't have been any louder or clearer if I'd been wearing some modern ear-buds. I didn't recognize it as the voice of anyone I knew, so figured it must be one of the male students I didn't know yet.
I really, really hope some of you appreciate the courage it takes to try to share this story knowing how it's just going to leave so many heads shaking, thinking "that poor nutcase bastard!"
There was another student at that time named Joe. I know this cos he did a song in class on guitar, a little lighthearted, self-mocking piece called "Judging Joe" dealing with the aforementioned problem of automatically judging everything and everyone.
Cayce,
You really do have an extraordinarily detailed memory, given you were in the group (as you said) for just 75 days. I was there at that time, in your group, and your detailed descriptions bring it back vividly.
Early this year, I ran into someone who was also there at that time, named David Mazzeo. He was very prominent in the boxing "line of work." We were both at our local NYC public gym, and I recognized him right away (much grayer in hair of course, but who of us isn't?). He did not remember me.
I said "We studied together." And responding to his look of puzzlement, I said, "You know, Fred and Sharon." "Wow," was his reply. It turned out we had overlapped for four months; he left in October '88. "Those people were crazy!," he continued. "I went on to study at the Gurdjieff Foundation for ten years. They were the real deal." Then, in a "confidential aside" manner, he whispered into my ear, "You know, the only one they called 'teacher' was Gurdjieff. Everyone else was just a 'student' or 'leader.'"
That was my second encounter with someone who'd studied seriously at the Gurdjieff Foundation in NYC. In early '09, I met someone who studied there for more than 20 years, under Jeanne de Salzmann (G.'s daughter, head of the Gurdjieff Foundation).
Did you ever pursue further group study as a part of your own quest?
Jeanne de Salzmann was not Gurdjieff's daughter. See Wikkipedia excerpt below:
"Jeanne Matignon de Salzmann born Jeanne Allemand often addressed as Madame de Salzmann (1889 – 25 May 1990) was a close pupil of G. I. Gurdjieff, recognized as his deputy by many of Gurdjieff's other pupils. She was responsible for transmitting the movements and teachings of Gurdjieff through the Gurdjieff Foundation of New York, the Gurdjieff Institute of Paris and other formal and informal groups throughout the world....
She met her husband Alexandre de Salzmann in Hellerau at Dalcroze's school. With him she had a daughter, Boussique. The Russian revolution triggered a move for Jeanne and her husband Alexandre to Tiflis, Georgia where she continued to teach.
In 1919, Thomas de Hartmann introduced the de Salzmanns to George Gurdjieff, a relationship that would last until Gurdjieff's death in 1949. She worked with Gurdjieff for nearly 30 years.
In December 1949, together with Henriette H. Lannes, Jane Heap and J. G. Bennett she initiated the startup of an organization, which would eventually become the Gurdjieff Foundation, to continue the Gurdjieff Work. On 6 October 1955 The Society for Research into the Development of Man Ltd. was founded. This organization later changed to The Gurdjieff Society Ltd., on the 17 June 1957. She led the organization and continued Gurdjieffs teachings, emphasizing work with the movements, until she died, 101 years old in 1990.
Her son by Gurdjieff, Michel de Salzmann born 1923, took over the leadership of the organization."
Thank you for the Wikipedia correction, Veronica.
My School Story-Part 19-By Cayce
TY for the very kind words, Ajax. I take great pride in my memory. Many years ago my 3 yr old nephew was sexually molested by a pervert grown man who, surprise surprise, still lived with his mother across the street. I confronted him & punched him in the face. He pressed charges & I was given a $75 fine which, 30 yrs hence remains unpaid (on principle). But it took 5 yrs for my nephew's case to come to court. The pervert's lawyer demanded the case be thrown out on the grounds that no one could possibly remember anything from the age of 3. The Judge agreed, so the pervert, Louis Cimo (worked at NJ Meadowlands Racetrack), walked. I suspect the Judge liked little boys, too.
I can still remember my 3rd Birthday after over half a century.
In 1974 I read Arthur Janov's book, "The Primal Scream" and this was the start of my journey. Unlike John Lennon and John McEnroe, I could not afford Primal Therapy, but I knew from the book that a "Bad Trip" on acid was simply one's previous traumatic experiences coming into consciousness. So I used Acid & Mescaline on a number of occasions with the express intent of remembering/reliving past traumas with unbelievable success. I retrieved one incident, in particular, which had sank to the level of TOTAL amnesia. Wasn't easy, still isn't, but have never regretted. I DON'T RECOMMEND OTHERS TRY!!
I bring this up only because every time I took an hallucinogenic I had this odd sensation that is impossible to explain. Closest I can come is to say it was in the inner nostrils, a sensation as if I had just inhaled some black pepper.
From almost the moment I met Roseann I had that sensation constantly. I had it during my entire period in school.
Earlier I said I was "OFFICIALLY" under a School influence for 75 days, but after I left School I continued to study every piece of their material I could procure with this odd sensation continuing as long as I did. What it was I don't know. My purely subjective impression was that it was Roseann (or some other "C" source) sending me energy (or whatever you want to call it) long before I ever even read of such a thing as a "C" source. In some quarters it might be referred to simply as "Grace". But my personal study continued for maybe 5 to 7 yrs after School & so did my odd pepper sensation. I never did study with a group again.
Cayce, thank you for your remembrances, they are fascinating and at times quite funny. There must be some other explanation for whatever you were experiencing during your "school" experience. It couldn't possibly be "C influence," if there even is such a thing, because that can only come through connection with a "real school" and the so-called "conscious circle of humanity," and the only thing "school" is connected with is Gans' titanic ego and the legacy of Horn's abusive and disgusting manipulations. This C influence thing is one of the Big Lies that the Gans cult tells its members (along with other delightful sentiments, like you'll "die like a dog in the street" if you dare to leave), and I'd hate to see that lie get repeated here. This is to take nothing away from your experience, Cayce, which I'm sure was/is quite real, just to say that its source is not in some phony notion of "C influence." The cult routinely takes credit for its members' high and unusual experiences -- that's one of the ways it creates a false impression of legitimacy.
Is it not possible that there is a real "mix" of influences in the Gans school? I was there for many years and this is what made it so difficult to leave for so long -- the fact that I did have REAL experiences of the work. I don't care if you call it "C" influence or simply the real ideas (which they are trying to twist for their own uses, but many of which are nonetheless real and very powerful ideas), they have an impact that can be experienced. In my many years in this school, I did see/experience real work being done (mostly by the students!!) and I personally did experience real change/transformation. Was it worth the price paid in terms of the incredibly fucked up atmosphere of fear and false teachings? As someone who did not suffer a lot of abuse directly, it is a question I struggle to answer. But yes, in the end, I do wish I'd never met those people... Part of my anger now has precisely to do with the subversion of these real and beautiful ideas. I had many fine experiences and loved so many people there so deeply. I am angry and hurt that it turns out to be such a disgusting sham...!
But I must claim what WAS real and wonderful, for my own sanity and spiritual future. But this process is a true challenge -- this effort to sort through my own experiences--a mish-mash mixture of real/unreal, truth/untruth, good/bad. But this is my experience and I need to say it here because it may help those who are still in.
Hope this is useful to someone.
To LetsHopeandPray,
Not only could what you posted be helpful for those still in, it's helpful to those who are OUT and wrestling with anger and shame and trying to pull out any good so that we don't toss off years of our lives as wasted.
You hit the nail on the head. There WERE some fine experiences. If there weren't, we probably wouldn't have stayed or been in such doubt about leaving. You are absolutely correct, and - I think -- going the only possibly right way if you are trying to claim what was good for your sanity and spiritual growth. What other approach could benefit you? Total regret? perpetual anger? No. We get up and keep going. And you are.
My School Story-Part 20-By Cayce
Ouspensky tells us that G's teachings had been carried down thru the the Middle Ages by groups like the Freemasons. I know I learned of the concept of "Many I's" thru Rosicrucian writings long before I met Roseann. I did, however have a big problem with O's idea of Re-occurrence, where you lived the same life over & over. Frankly I'd rather just be dead.
The Rosicrucians teach reincarnation. Apparently at least one of Christ's Apostle's believed this, too. After He healed a man born blind, one of them asked Him if the man's blindness was due to his parents' sins or his own sins. Since it's unlikely he murdered his twin in the uterus, the only way it could have been from his own sins was if he lived before. Of course it turned out that neither was the correct answer.
I was fascinated by the RC idea that identical twins were just one soul controlling both bodies to gain double the life experiences/development in one lifetime.
And cheap old Mr. Gurdjieff doesn't even allow us to have ONE soul for one body, but if ya work really, really hard maybe, just maybe, you can grow one!
BTW, you have an excellent memory, too, Ajax. They did in fact initiate the men's Boxing program during my short time there.
From some of the stuff I read you had to be interviewed and approved by a teacher to get in School. I went thru no such process. And I had to almost force the guy to take my 2nd month's tuition.
I did run across a Rodney Collin on line that tried to direct me to a School in Chicago in '09. Said I'd find it at www.theacademyofeuropeanarts.com tho I never even bothered visiting the site. I'm surprized I didn't find Gurdjieff, himself!
My School Story-Part 21-By Cayce
I am having waaaaay too much fun doing this! And I don't mean to be insensitive to the many that have suffered. I was just reading a post on the Stop Sharon Gans site where the writer couldn't even make the simplest decision for 10 yrs after leaving. Obviously a great deal of damage has been done. They have pics of about 20 teachers!
Raegan Bliss Wood looks just like the student that usually sat in front of me just to the right, tho the blonde hair was not quite shoulder length then. She had kinda thick lips, not the kind that inspire certain oral fantasies, but rather the somewhat less attractive old German woman look. She was an incredibly enthusiastic student, always making approving comments to herself for every good point she heard. She was the one I paired off with to exchange energy in bodywork. Could be wrong, tho, you'd think I'd remember a name like Raegan from The Exorcist.
They didn't have a pic of Cynthia, but Mary Meely Terry looks kinda like Fred's cigarette girl. And these days I'm gonna hafta scratch Minerva off my "stunningly beautiful" list.
I was assigned to Mark on my first day & pissed about it from the start. I wanted "my Roseann". Plus Mark led the hated bodywork. We arranged to meet at a close by bar before the next class. I asked him if Fred & Minerva were married and rather than simply answer me, he suggested I should ask them myself. Now I was beginning to really hate this fat fuck. I felt like I'd been separated from a truly masterful (mistressful?) "R" and gotten stuck with a turd.
I felt from my 1st day that so many students didn't understand the point of the 5 wk aim. It would all be stupid shit like "I'm gonna make an extra $400 this month". Even as a complete newbie I understood it as "your reach should exceed your grasp." You should be doing all the things you REALLY wanted to do in life, but COULDN'T.
For a long time I'd been haunting The Speakeasy in the Village & I absolutely loved all the incredible live acoustic music. For the 2nd time in my life I bought a guitar but this time actually started to learn to play it. I wanted to be able to do what they did. Now ya gotta keep in mind that in the 4th grade Sister Eleanor heard me as we were practicing for a school assembly the following day. She told me to just move my lips but not really sing tomorrow. My poor little 9 yr old heart was crushed. Told mom I was sick next day to stay home. So let me tell you what a REAL aim is: you volunteer to do 2 songs at the Speakeasy on open mike nite with an often less-than-compassionate NY crowd!
My School Story-Part 22-By Cayce
Now one of the more useful purposes of a school is "Borrowing Will" cos it's so easy to give into fear & find some excuse/rationalization for not performing at the Speakeasy. If your fear/shame of telling 120 people that you punked out is greater then you might actually accomplish your aim and experience some actual growth of essence, being, or just fuckin' self confidence.
All of this is, of course, dependent upon being in an honest, ethical school. Otherwise it's just like Scientology. They Audit you on the E-meter to remove all the hurt from your Thetan/Soul/Consciousness, or so they say. Maybe it really works. Haven't done it, so don't know. But whether it really works or not, in the end they just use it as a confessional and then blackmail you with your own sins. I don't give 2 shits if Tom Cruise & John Travolta are Gay or not, BUT THEY DO and so now their souls are owned by Scientology.
From what I'm reading Rosanne may have considered herself "very, very lucky" to have been found by a school, but I thank God Almighty that I was uncomfortable enough to leave after such a short time and take any further teaching directly from the printed page.
Theoretically the advanced student can see/sense whether or not someone has developed a "magnetic center" either thru an intense desire for something, or by virtue of being completely disgusted with their present life. ONLY people with a magnetic center are capable of benefiting from a school. This is the official school teaching!
Well, by their fruits shall ye know them. What I witnessed on my 1st attempted recruitment was the Clown woman and a guy with her stopping every single young White person that walked pass them. IF there is a magnetic center I very much doubt that virtually everyone has one. Anyone who knows these last 2 paragraphs to be true has kind of, well, been willfully blind.
And I know I'm coming dangerously close to victim bashing and I assure you that is not my intent. I am well aware of Utopian ideals and how the real world works. There is always a schoolyard bully, and it's so easy to say "Why don't ALL the kids just gang up together and kick the shit out of him so they'll all be safe?" While it may be sound reasoning, people are not reasonable. Of all people, WE know that. That's why school seemed desirable in the 1st place.
School also taught the idea of the Ray, and octaves, and how only a highly developed man would know how, when and at what point to apply the needed shock so he might constantly stay on track. With all the inter-marrying between the different teachers it is more than obvious they didn't know how to practice what they preached.
Not to mention that when the teachers tell you that the Carlos Castenada stuff was a 4th way teaching, in essence they're telling you that you're practicing sorcery. Ya kinda don't feel quite as good about it when ya look at it that way.
Anyway, I sincerely hope maybe something here might help some of you out there.
To Lets Hope and Pray,
Thank you for re-stating what most us do know. Yes, there were wonderful things about our "school" experience. Many, many of them. It was at times like breathing the rarest of atmospheres, or like tilling in a very special hothouse, alongside extraordinary company.
I probably take for granted the way my thinking was permanently changed and made richer by the ideas I was introduced to, ideas which do indeed have eternal weight.
And you are correct, the sifting of true-from-false is a vital part of retaining sanity. Some contemporary historical figures say, "We must always honor the warrior, even if we do not agree with the war in which they are engaged." The same is true for us. We must honor the searcher, and the spirit of search, even if aspects of the way were flawed.
Thank you again.
My School Story-Part 23-By Cayce
Maybe it's time to change directions and look at possible personal HEALING.
Homeopathy's not gonna do it cos it's too complicated, and far too individualized. But let me make a simple, safe, cheap suggestion. (Oh GOD, I just knew he must be selling something!) I'm not.
Try visiting www.bachcentre.com/centre/remedies.htm to learn about Edward Bach's 38 Flower Remedies. He was a Homeopath that eventually developed an incredibly simple system for treating problems with an emotional root (no pun intended, well, maybe just a little) with flower petals in a bowl of water in sunlight for a few hours, and just a tiny bit of alcohol as a preservative.
Ya got a dog that hides under the bed every time ya turn the vacuum cleaner on? Ya give him Mimulus for "Known Fears".
Ya got one of those friends that's obsessed with her own troubles and constantly pours them out to you, sapping your vitality, but is so busy bitching she never listens? Give her some Heather.
Ever suffer from deep gloom that descends upon you for no apparent reason, and then lifts just as suddenly? Try some Mustard.
Know someone whose very soul is poisoned by jealousy, hatred, suspicion, or the need for revenge? Give him some Holly.
THE SYSTEM IS THAT SIMPLE.
You can probably find Bach Flower Essences at any health food store. I know they're in Pasteur's Pharmacy in NYC. You'll get a bottle about the size of a Chap Stick for maybe 8 bucks. It's got an eye dropper & ya just put 2 drops under your tongue a few times daily. Should last a month or two.
My wife has always suffered from migraines. I sized her up one day and gave her the appropriate remedies for her current emotional state. She took them just to keep me happy but had no expectation of relief. And then she died. ONLY KIDDING, just tryna keep the mood a little lighter. Honestly, she was amazed when it was gone in a few minutes.
But the most important help, she refused. I told her if she gave up caffeine there'd be no more headaches. She tried it and it worked, but decided she couldn't live without caffeine. So she made a conscious decision to live with headaches and prescriptions. You can't force healing on anyone.
Just check out the site. It's utterly simple and straightforward.
What do you have to lose but your persistent unwanted thoughts? White Chestnut.
BTW, most Homeopathic remedies, especially the plant based ones tend to get antidoted by caffeine, so if you're gonna give this a try, try to at least limit its use.
Mantequilla,
Your post from several months ago very powerful -- about the consequences of cult-arranged marriages and divorces FOR THE CHILDREN. So, a question:
About ten days, in New York, I ran into a young woman (early 30s) on the subway. She is a "child of the cult" and I was close to her parents "in life" for a while, so she and I know each other. We brought each other up to date on a number of things, as two people would.
I know she is adopted, and I know who her birth mother is. I do not know whether she knows this information, or wants to know it. I also know that this young woman is more fragile than she comes off. Isn't proffering natural-parent information -- before it has been asked for -- a violent act?
I have heard there is an informal network of young people such as yourself. How do you help each other heal?
To Yes, Honor the Struggle:
Thank you for your response to my post. It is very meaningful to me to know that others share this same exact struggle (that of sifting through the real, positive experiences and the true ideas and seperating these from the lies and perversity present in this school)
I really do appreciate your two quotes about the valor of the warrior and the need to honor the searcher and the search, even if the path was flawed. Very important to me, these words!!! Thank you!!!
Yes, the path was indeed, sooooo very flawed. And a deep part of me is really hurt by that. It's not the same as the outright abuse many others suffered. Hearing of these horrors, I am deeply saddened for all these fellow seekers and, of course, grateful that I somehow escaped this fate (mostly probably just by not being a part of any kind of "inner circle" activity -- i was just never that important to them to mess with I guess...).
So, my pain is much, much less and different. I really can even often forget it is there. yet it is. And it really is keeping me back. I lost something so important. I lost a purity of hope in something really extraordinary. I was so lifted up by that hope for such a long time. It is hard to reconnect with it now, even though I know that the extraordinary thing I experienced had nothing to do with Gans and all the specificis of THIS PARTICULAR GROUP OF PEOPLE AND CIRCUMSTANCES (I.e.SCHOOL). This extraordinary thing is eternal and real and available to us all who can reach for it and can open our hearts to receive it. But it's hard to be open to it now... Really hard.
cayce--amazing--your recollections are vivid and spot on and I was there and know all the players--there is no doubt that a room full of people, mostly young, mostly searching, mostly bright, are going to stir up some mental and sexual heat--and that can be counted on, and you can use the bible or plato or the phone book as a teaching and you can get some fun results. the thing is--it was all a very nasty money-scam, with only three or four people benefitting. it has nothing to do with the gurdjieff work. and yes--as someone said--no one calls themselves a teacher at the gurdhieff foundation. why would they? i have met poeple who know stuff and have really helped me--that is all.. there is a real teaching. it does not have to do with people running around in terror that they have not met their cult-recruit snatching quota. no one has ever demanded that i do anything or suggested that i ought to do anything. everything is a response to what i ask about. its a very grown up thing. yes, i miss the childish sexiness that was available to some poeple in the gans cult, but ultimately it was all a draw to catch you--flirty fishing--and cayce you are lucky as hell you got out when you did. i was thrown out after five years--thank god
My School Story-Part 24-By Cayce
TY, Diogenes, for your info. I have read some of your posts elsewhere. We need EVERY voice.
It is hard to gauge whether the paucity of feedback to my posts is due to few folks visiting this site, or a widespread attitude of "just ignore him and maybe he'll go away." I am here, BTW, because of Don Raskopf's posts on similar sites. I was inspired by his complete lack of fear, BOLDLY naming names/addresses/ph #'s. And especially his desire to, as he says, "Cut the snakes' heads off", meaning an attempt to gather sufficient evidence/testimony to imprison these deceiving, raping, life-destroying scumbags!
Along those lines, they should also have their assets seized to make financial restitution to all those they have damaged!
It is not enough to spend time trying to clean up the mess they make by comforting each other, or trying to "wake-up" their current willing-slaves. It will just continue happening to more & more innocent victims. The more I look into this the more I realize how close I came to having been ENSLAVED for the past 23 yrs!
Don has stated that he wants to also stage protests at their meeting places before, during & after class. Handing out leaflets to present students entering & leaving. He has posted his ph. # as (917)658-4492, his e-mail as donr@remodelingcoach.net and gives us a list of the homes he has built for the teachers, replete with the addresses!
May Almighty God Continue To Bless, Protect And Inspire You & Yours, Don!
Also, please send any pictures you have of School Personnel to DefenseAgainstEvil@safe-mail.net so they can be posted at www.StopSharonGans.blogspot.com cos I only had 2 first names, so I could never track them down. Must have been the same for most.
This is where we start.
THE CHICKENS HAVE COME HOME TO ROOST!
My School Story-Part 25-By Cayce
One of the rules in School was you couldn't masturbate. The reason given was that it took "energy" away that was needed for School "Work". This was also the reason you couldn't tell others about School itself. Suddenly I was back in grammar school covering all my texts with brown paper bag bookcovers.
I think an example given was like a ladle at a well to drink from, and every time you revealed some of the secret info to the "outer circle" of unprepared/undeserving humanity you punctured another hole in the ladle. Eventually, thru repeated transgressions, there'd be so many holes in it that even you, yourself, wouldn't be able to get a drink.
There was a young woman there that started right after me. She questioned this anti-masturbation policy on the basis that she & her boyfriend masturbated in front of each other to give each other pleasure. Fred & Minerva eventually agreed to get back to her on the matter. In view of what I now know I can only assume they went to Alex and/or Sharon with this matter.
I'd guess this woman to be in late 20's/mid 30's, being a bit exploitative so as to not seem "out of it" in the midst of a generally younger group. She had straight blonde hair just below the shoulder blades & kinda skinny. We of the unfairer sex sometimes refer to this type under the general heading "skank". (C'mon dammit, it's called humor) She also admitted to still smoking pot while in School AND currently unemployed.
Was there ANY rule she wasn't breaking?
Maybe what I read was right and she was there tuition free on a 30 day trial period.
She was told she had to get a job and stop all drug usage if she was to remain. At the next class she was told that masturbation was OK under the circumstances she described. While they didn't elaborate on the reasons, I agreed with them simply because it was impossible to masturbate without LYING when you're by yourself. I defy anyone reading this to successfully masturbate and orgasm without holding an "object" in mind. It'll never happen by rubbing/physical manipulation alone. You've got to "LIE" and form a mental image of the cute girl at the check-out counter, or Brad Pitt (according to your personal taste).
In her case they could both masturbate without lying by focusing on each other.
I believe that in a REAL School masturbation would not be permitted, but purely out of compassion...to spare the student embarrassment when he, or she, eventually realizes the teacher knows all.
And Diogenes, such an apt name. Father of the philosophy of Cynicism that was at one point made into a slave!
Yeah, I use Edgar Cayce. He predicted NYC, Los Angelas & San Francisco would all be destroyed. He couldn't give exact dates for each, but certainly all of them by May 5th, 2005! Altho maybe some would argue that these cities have indeed been destroyed. Guess it depends on your definition. Startin' ta sound like Bill Clinton's BJ excuse, "well, it all depends on what "is" is!
test
I am new to the blog, but someone posted a link to a New Yorker article re. Scientology. I've spent a good two hours pouring over it and am struck by the similarities between Scientology and "School". Different language, same insidious manipulation. The quote below, really summed it all up for me:
“The process of induction is so long and slow that you really do convince yourself of the truth of some of these things that don’t make sense,” Haggis told me. Although he refused to specify the contents of O.T. materials, on the ground that it offended Scientologists, he said, “If they’d sprung this stuff on me when I first walked in the door, I just would have laughed and left right away.” But by the time Haggis approached the O.T. III material he’d already been through several years of auditing.
Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/02/14/110214fa_fact_wright#ixzz1cB2bwULs
So Cayce, have you called Don yet and planned your attack?
My School Story-Part 26-By Cayce
The bill collector's here and it's time to repay a debt long owed:
I already told you I wrote a song inspired by my meeting with Rosanne at work the very next day (on a fork-lift). I'm tempted to just print the lyrics, but I know that kind of stuff usually just bores the shit out of me, so I'll spare you.
The first few lines spoke of my use of Heroin in the past. I had recorded a rather pathetic version of it and played the cassette for Roseann as I was driving her from the Village to her home just across the Williamsberg Bridge maybe 10 days later. We spoke of that particular drug and all its implications. She told me that at one point she had been a "Punk" (kind of an older term for Goth), dressing only in black and had tried it too. I got the impression that meant she had maybe snorted it once or thrice. My song made it clear I'd been shooting it...often.
After further discussion when it became evident I'd sometimes used "shooting galleries" where needles were shared she asked me if I'd had an HIV test since stopping. I told her no. She then proceeded to try to impress upon me just how important this was. That it wasn't just for my sake, but that I had a responsibility for the safety of any I might be close with in the future, that I could conceivably cause others to die!
Well the message hit home. I heard what she was saying and knew she was absolutely right. But such a revelation doesn't come in an intellectual vacuum. By the time we got to her home inside of me I was devastated. I felt like a complete pariah, one of the "untouchables" that gets shipped off to a leper colony, where no one but a Mother Theresa would dare come near you for fear of infection. One condemned to a life of utter loneliness and lovelessness!
While I tried to appear casual about the whole thing, and assured her I would get tested immediately, she KNEW what turmoil was raging inside of me. And I have already told you, she had made it quite plain that this was not a "romantic thing" that was going on between us. But we were parked in front of her apartment and it was time for her to bid me "Good Night" and get out of the car.
Well, ya know, she easily could have and that would have been the end of it. She could have just went home and went to sleep. She could have left me to drive back to New Jersey, feeling worse than a cross between The Hunchback Of Notre Dame and the scientist that went thru his teleportation machine and came out as half fly!
But she didn't. She showed me the greatest kindness any human being could have hoped for at that moment: SHE LEANED OVER AND KISSED ME ON THE MOUTH!!!!!
Suddenly all the fear of being an "untouchable" vanished. I will never forget this incredible act of genuine concern/love as long as I live.
Oh, you don't think it's such a big deal? Would YOU kiss someone smack-dab on the lips who was very likely an as yet undiagnosed HIV Positive person?
I don't even have to take a second to think about it. Unless its my dying Mom, Dad, Wife or Child there ain't a chance in hell!
This is just one of the many reasons why I loved her so much over the 23 yr period. I hope to God what Joy Arising said is true and she is no longer in School.
But I needed to tell this story, even if it casts a further shadow on me. If she is truly out of School I've done her a grave disservice by posting her info and scaring her by my attempted contact. The least I can do is stress the positive here, altho aside from my initial anger I think I have mostly been very kind in my references to her.
Interestingly, long before my 1st day of School, Roseann looked me squarely in the eyes and told me the day would come when I would doubt all she had shown me. She was wrong. I just doubt the School Teachers.
I know this posting doesn't even begin to compare to what she did for me, but it's all I've got to offer as payment.
No Anon, I haven't called Don yet to plan the attack. I'm too busy posting My School Story close to 24 hr per day from Indiana.
But I will drop him an e-mail & I suspect we will talk at length.
Hey Hummingbird,
I dealt with Scientology a bit on My School Story part 22 if ya wanna scroll up.
Beyond that every thing they do is based on a gradient scale. I'll give you a real life Scientology example from their own textbooks.
They start with DIANETICS: The Modern Science Of Mental Health. It says anything that causes periods of unconsciousness damages you. This is basically anything painful/traumatic. They ran a commercial yrs ago where a kid gets hit in the head by a baseball. As he lays there on the grass groggy someone says, "man, he's a mess" and then for the rest of his life if he hears that phrase he gets a headache or dizzy.
Once you accept this, you are gradually taken back to earlier & earlier traumas. Not so hard to accept. As you remember them you erase the negative charge they have on you. Not so hard to accept.
Eventually you go to the # 1 trauma: BIRTH! Think about it. Since you were conceived you have been 98.6 degrees but U R born in AUG & the AC is on & the delivery room is 55 degrees. It's not that 55 degrees is inherently painful, but it is SHOCKING to U cos U have never experienced anything like it.
And all sound was muffled by amniotic fluid. Now, suddenly metal surgical instruments R clanging loudly against stainless steel trays. SHOCKING for 1 that has never heard unmuffled noise. Not so hard to accept.
Suddenly they find traumas before conception. OMG, we have past lives! Well, I guess it's possible. So now Scientology is born.
Well, if ya can have 1 past life, why not 50? Not so hard to accept.
Ya know there are billions of stars, and most have planets. Do ya really think this is the ONLY planet u have ever lived on. Well, statistically it sound probable the must be life elsewhere.
Do you really think every single past life was as a human? Are U that tiny minded?
And suddenly you are a God-like being ripping the atmospheres off planets and then hurling the planets like snowballs at another God-like being.
This was an actual case history I read of in one of their textbooks!
Like I said, everything is done on a gradient scale.
Hey, Cayce - Sounds like you've done a lot of research. And it sounds a bit like the "we all came from the starry world" bit ... actually, I always did like that particular idea. Anyway, it was interesting to draw the comparison.
From the "Rules of Revolutionary Warfare," successfully used by the North Vietnamese against the French and then the Americans:
-Strike
-Strike to Win
-If Victory is Not Possible, Do Not Strike
I find the discussions of "bringing down" the Gans organization dreamy and childish, when they do not acknowledge the reality of a cunning, adaptive, tenacious adversary that has defeated all previous efforts to expose and destroy it.
So, let's not waste our precious lives on "sound and fury signifying nothing." An intelligent effort against the Gans organization will be pin-point focused, dead-clear about objectives, and fully versed in the history of past efforts.
It will also be cunning, adaptable and tenacious.
Go Sun Tzu!!
I so agree.
Either get it together and do something real or shut up about it and get on with your lives.
OK, I'll see your Sun Tzu and raise you a Lao Tzu, to use a poker analogy, who said "A journey of a thousand miles begins with but a single step."
Ya gotta start somewhere. Perhaps a class action lawsuit by a group of the "traded" children.
Or the "death by a thousand cuts" strategy as used by the Mujahideen against the USSR when they invaded Afghanistan. More recently being used against the US.
If you had a child molester move across the street from your family, and you had young ones, but the guy had already beat 39 previous charges, do you expect us to believe you wouldn't TRY to do something?
The 1st rule of Healing is "1st do no harm". The 2nd is "remove the offending cause". Ya gotta remove that arrow before addressing the wound itself.
I don't see why sites like this can't be used for "brainstorming" to come up with viable strategies.
Yes, Cayce, your-journey-of-a-thousand-miles goal is a worthy one. If your "first step" is something that would do Mossad, Karl Rove, or a first-rate private investigator proud, I am all ears.
One of the principles of "The Art of War" is you do not reveal your strategic position to your adversary. Another: You do not reveal your plan of attack to your adversary. Another: You never behave as your adversary expects you to behave.
Given our adversary, these kinds of precepts are to me the STARTING POINT of any bringing-down conversation.
Sun Tzu, you'll get no arguments from me whatsoever. You are, obviously, quite correct. But none of us can do it alone. We gotta get to know each other first before we can connect and strategize in private.
Even then we'd have the problem of trying to weed out Agent Provocateurs sent in to our ranks by the School itself. I doubt there is a single person who has visited this site that hasn't wondered if it wasn't set up by the School, itself, specifically to monitor its "drop-outs".
It's all very "shades of George Orwell's 1984" where the secret rebels he finds are just another Big Brother agency. A very tangled web indeed.
And I meant to add to your Shakespearean soliloquy earlier the paraphrase (rather than look it up) there are far more things in the Heavens & Earth than are dreamt of in your Philosophy.
If I haven't mentioned it I did call Ron yesterday & e-mail him my posts so I don't have to waste time rehashing it all verbally.
Sorry, that should have been "Don"
If anyone wonders whether this site gets visited, please note: Pageview count on 9/1/11 -- 11,651 visitors. Today, 10/31/11 -- 14,318 visitors.
Cayce, Sun Tzu and Anonymous - You are all way ahead of me in your thinking. Having just "left" this summer, I'm still trying to make sense out of the last five years of my life (where did it go?), let alone strategize a war against the machine.
I hope the following two posts are helpful for anyone who trips over this blog, b/c he or she is questioning this thing called "school". It is a wee window into my story -- just enough, to get the gist:
Having left “school” recently, after a five-year tenure, I cannot verify much of what I read on esoteric freedom. I must admit, so much of it sounds outrageous: Sharon arranging and breaking up marriages; my $350/month tuition used to purchase personal homes; children born to couples in school to be passed around to be raised by people other than their parents.; “school” -- that once appeared so benevolent -- rooted in a cult almost busted for abusing its members. It’s impossible to reconcile these perceptions.
(TBC on next post)
Part 2:
But,for those who are wondering and seeking information, this I can verify:
•It feels wonderful to no longer be carrying around secrets. Carrying secrets ate up so much energy. And what was being defined as “private” was eating up more and more of my life as each year past, digging an ever -widening gulf between myself, my husband, my family and my dearest friends from “life”. If you recall the story of Plato’s cave -- that is so often discussed within “school” – in this scenario, the secret of school was squeezing the life out of my life. The shadowy, secretive, activities of Tuesday and Thursday nights (plus) were bleeding out (hemorrhaging really) and flooding the daytime. The cave was devouring my life and I didn’t even know.
•It feels wonderful to realize that life is messy and it has ups and downs that are in no way related to being in school, or not being in school. It feels wonderful to start letting go of this attachment to the “successes” in my life being due to being in school, or the “failures” coming as a result of either leaving school, or just not being a stellar, perfect student. Also letting go of the feeling that I “owe” school my life, because of the “help” I have received along the way.
•It feels wonderful to be at home with my husband, available to problem-solve with him about our current challenges and therefore be a true partner to him – nurturing and growing our imperfect relationship to the best of our abilities, without being exhausted by lack of sleep or depleted by anxiety and worry over whether I’m bringing other students to school, or how I’m going to come up with $350 a month for tuition right now. Or whether I’ve completed the assignment, etc. etc. etc. etc. blah. Blah. Blah.
•It feels wonderful to talk to him. I never want to keep secrets from my husband again, because I recognize the insidious damage it has done and would continue to do if I’d done what I’d been instructed to do after he discovered online information about the Odyssey Study Group: “Tell him to mind his own business.” We all know that eventually, my marriage would have ended.
•It feels wonderful to decide when and to whom I want to speak with at any given time without carrying this hidden agenda of bringing new students to school. What a burden. I never wanted to recruit students; I recognized that I could (I don’t really have trouble talking to strangers) but it always felt wrong to me.
•It feels wonderful to finally have access and be able to consult my inner gut feeling about what is right and wrong and next steps in my life, rather than constantly asking for “help” – translation -- permission.
In the last number of months I’ve pondered often this idea of freedom and what it means to truly be free. Perhaps true freedom is the ability to accept one’s humanity and imperfection – perfect imperfection – and live life to the best of one’s ability, regardless. Perhaps freedom is the ability to be connected to one’s own strong inner sense of right and wrong. Which brings to mind the question, what is imprisonment? Perhaps a man or woman who is imprisoned abdicates his or her own power and voice to others by asking the question “how do I live?” and requesting “tell me what to do?”
I recognize now that I handed my voice and power over to “teachers”. Tell me what to do? Give me instruction, or “help”. I am grateful to my husband, for his questioning pushed me into a corner in which I had to ask myself, “What is right?” and I had to realize that no one but me knows the answer to that question. And that connected me to a deep knowing: my marriage would not survive if I continued, and in choosing between school and my marriage (school begins, allegedly, as a “5-week experiment” and marriage which vows a lifetime commitment in the presence of friends and family). When push came to shove, it was clear that I had to choose my marriage. Come what may, I will never regret that choice.
Yes, Anonymous, so much of it IS outrageous. I was there, and I can verify. Sharon and Robert pushed members into marriages, threatened members to break up marriages, forced members to have children in secret and give them up for adoption, encouraged members married to people outside of "school" to have affairs with school members, intensely pressured older students with money to give significant amounts (I mean hundreds of thousands of dollars) to "school," forced parents to swap children and lie about it to them forever . . . the list of abuses goes on and on and on. Younger students are routinely lied to, and their privacy is systematically violated by their "sustainers," who must submit reports before every class on what that student has said, is thinking, etc. If a younger student is perceived as getting the slightest bit out of line -- if they're questioning or hesitating or expressing any doubts -- a program of manipulation and lies swings into motion. "Teachers" who have been tipped off by their sustainer-spies pretend in class to have some sort of clairvoyant or beyond-normal insight into the wayward student's supposedly private thoughts, which appears to verify claims of evolved consciousness. But it's all treachery and deceit.
And Sharon and Robert and their lieutenants believe that all of these lies, manipulations, and abuse is justified because they're on some supposedly "higher level" and the rules of so-called "conventional morality" don't apply to them. This is the exact justification that dictators and fascists and cult leaders ALWAYS use.
It's an open question how much of this a given "older student" or teacher actually believes. I think it varies from individual to individual, but in the end it hardly matters to the people school violates and damages. The end supposedly justifies the means. It does not, because it never does. But then look closely at what the "end" actually is. It's all about being "special," being "above the law," exalting oneself above the "mass of humanity" who are just "food for the moon": dogshit, in other words. Is this really any sort of enlightened belief? If you really sincerely believe that there are a few "extra-special" people who ought to be in charge of the maintenance of the world, and if you really sincerely believe that you are either one of them or are at least in service to them, then you're permitted to do anything. Manipulation, invasion of privacy, lying, rape, stealing, even murder. Nothing is off limits.
No doubt students, especially in the first few years, have high and real and fine experiences. I had many, many of them. But the fact that "school" is organized to give younger students such experiences doesn't wipe away what's really going on "behind the curtain," and it doesn't change the fact that the whole enterprise is an elaborate trap, one that tightens on you more and more the further you "progress." The most cynical and distressing aspect of the whole godawful mess is that students really DO have fine experiences and really DO learn something, at least at the beginning. But it all gets connected up wrong and attributed to the wrong stuff and ultimately used as a very powerful, very insidious means of enslavement.
Thanks, Anonymous, for responding and verifying that which I cannot. I am grateful that I got out before I experienced the worst aspects of school -- although, I must admit, I could sense something sinister sneaking up behind me. I am sad for the friends I left behind, one being a very dear friend, from "life", who I introduced to this system. I feel a heaviness about that, because this friend is pretty well hook, line and sinker in deep.
Reading your response made me realize that I am looking for verification. Perhaps, in some way, I am still looking for affirmation that I made the right decision, even though, I know I did and I'm in no way in danger of going back.
So ... those who can verify, please do.
I'd just like to thank all of you for the latest posts. The minute I saw Hummingbird's one word post of "Test" I figured someone's floodgates were about to open, even if she did switch to Anon (as suggested simply by the time signatures).
Like her, I had no personal info on the terrible incidents I've been reading lately. As a matter of fact when I first came across horror stories concerning 4th Way schools I thought to myself, "Thank God I was in a good one" and just assumed the ones out west I read about were false schools started by hucksters that had sampled a real one by pure chance.
This is why these other sites that post pics/full names of teachers are so valuable (like www.StopSharonGans.blogspot.com) so we can connect our one name teachers to bad reports. While I'm not looking for a Genuine School, those who are will have a better chance of separating the wheat from the chaff.
I corresponded with Bill Cooper for many yrs and even attended his funeral in AZ. I suspect Mel Gibson's "Conspiracy Theory" movie was largely based on him. He spent much of his time/energy exposing "Secret Societies". When I asked him if he didn't think some of them might be good, the answer was an emphatic "NO!" He was a very controversial figure, and while I'd hardly take his every word as Gospel Truth I did get a lot out of his research.
He claimed that Scientology was the result of experiments by the Office Of Naval Intelligence (the Navy's in-house CIA), basically a giant Mind Control program. If so, they've been wildly successful.
That general line of thought begs the question of whether or not our Schools could go beyond Horn and Gans to just another social experiment by some Black Ops group, making us lab rats in a Real World study. Sorry, just a little "mental masturbation" on my part.
And I concur with Hummingbird in thanking Anonymous for sharing his/her knowledge and verifying the destruction/manipulation of actual families in the School experience. Yes, believing that the ends justify the means almost inevitable leads to evil.
I don't know how I missed this, from TimeOut New York in 2006, called "Follow the Leader." It's a tongue-in-cheek "field guide to New York cults." Each of those on the list is given a "kool-aid potential" rating.
Ganscult is one of the four listed.
http://bit.ly/ssFB7g
Only a 1 cup of Kool-Aid rating, Ajax? Oh, I feel so much safer! Good looking out!
I just read excerpts from "Supping With Alex" by Dave Archer. He sounds much more like an Aleister Crowley than a Gurdjieff (The Battle Of The Magicians), but then again, for yrs I asked people "What's the difference between a Black Witch and a White Witch?" which evoked the expected responses. The correct answer was "Nothing!"
I read a post on this site on a different thread by Ashiata where he was requesting help from any computer literate people to help him restructure this site to make it more "User Friendly".
What he means by that, specifically, is that the only folks reading this have "clicked on" to the "Comments" of a "Steve Jobs" post with a Steve Jobs heading. Since most people don't give two shits about Steve Jobs, most people will never read what we have written here.
Any volunteers? (Does that sound familiar?) I think he basically just needs someone who knows how to group currently posted messages under appropriate headings/keywords. I'm sure it's relatively simple and I'd do it for him in a NYC 4th Way School minute if I knew how.
Also, in the aforementioned Dave Archer story he talks about how the males in the Alex Horn group were encouraged to physically fight each other. Often to the point of broken noses, bones, bloody messes, etc. This was in the 60's. Did this go on in the NYC group too? Or was their sending of the guys to a gym with face protection just a case of War after the Geneva Convention when we added "RULES" to make War more civilized?
Sorry, and is there any reason to believe that school experiences might have inspired the movie "Fight Club" with Edward Norton/Brad Pitt and the surprize ending where it was really just one guy with "MANY I's" that led the school/club? Which, incidentally, led to the establishment of other schools/clubs over time?
re. the "kool-aid potential" rating. Ajax, thanks for posting. I needed a good laugh! ;-) And it's so funny to see the words Odyssey Study Group and Sharon Gans published in Time Out - guess it's not such a big secret.
Ooooh, but I beg to differ, Anonymous. I posted some Eleanor McEvoy lyrics earlier:
My home town's dear to me
It's always in my sight
But my city's Shadows
Walk around in broad daylight
I dare say Jim Jones was VERY well known in his home town over on the West Coast. He even had a Congressman make a long trip to check up on him. Only to meet him and Death.
And, if memory serves, the city of San Francisco actually gave him numerous awards during his stay for all his fine "work" helping humanity.
And Diogenes, I was re-reading a previous post and realized it might be read as a compliment, or as a mocking statement. I assure you it was meant as a tribute to an incredibly clever choice of signatures.
Here is a youtube clip, slide-show style, of Gansgroup leaders and various real estate properties owned or controlled by the cult itself, or individual members of the cult. For some reason, the clip is silent.
http://bit.ly/suCIQ6
FYI, the pictures of "wide open spaces against the mountains" are from the ranch in Montana. The snow covered buildings are of the former retreat compound in Pawling, NY. The gated entrance is to Gans' former Mahopac, NY residence. The Plaza Hotel photo is of Gans' current home residence; the fourth floor, facing the park. (Additions/corrections welcome here.)
Thank you DefenseAgainstEvil for your effort. If you are aware of anything else like this, please post it.
Erasing the historical record is one of the tools of the Gans group to control both current and former “students.” To counter-act, here are two pages worth noting, for those new to this site, or those new to the longer history of the Gans group:
The first url is to a 2002 “school”-produced film called “Artists & Orphans, A True Drama” which was directed by “student” Lianne Klapper McNally and featuring Sharon Gans. The film was nominated for 2002 “Best Documentary” by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.
http://imdb.to/tmJeJo
Celebrity Rosie O’Donnell was tapped for the voiceover, only to discover that the Gans group is alleged to be homophobic. The second url is to a NY Daily News article about the ensuing controversy.
http://bit.ly/uZQ7rm
It is very, very difficult to get a copy of this film. Sites like esotericfreedom.blogspot keep the public record of the Gans group alive.
Here is the url to a ten-minute youtube clip of Gansgroup leadership and various real estate properties either owned by the cult, or controlled by individual members of the cult.
http://bit.ly/suCIQ6
FYI, the "wide open spaces" photos are of the ranch property in Montana. The snow-covered buildings are of the group's former retreat compound in Pawling, NY. The gated entrance is to Gans' former home in Mahopac, NY (destroyed by fire). The Plaza hotel shows the facade of Gans' current residence (fourth floor, facing Central Park).
If you are aware of any other clips like this, please post their address to this site.
Here is a url to a CitySearch review of Taylor Hodson, a privately-held executive search company alleged to be affiliated with the Gansgroup.
http://bit.ly/s7SB2Q
Anonymous (who left this summer to save her marriage..)
Thank you very much for your posts. I am in a similar place to you in terms of (fortunately!) not witnessing first hand the true horrors of school. My experience was pretty beneign comparatively speaking. I had suspiscions at times -which sometimes led me to the Internet, but when I read the real awful stuff, I assumed it was lies on the part of angry former students!! You know, there were discussions about this when I was there... how far disgruntled former students would go to destroy the work and Sharon...how this was a real living example of dark, unconscious forces hating the light... And, for awhile, I believed this incredible lie!)
But it all sounds so farfetched, doesn't it??? Except when I did begin to hear the stories here, little tidbits of strange memories began to return to me and they started to make a very creepy and sad sense. A married woman who suddenly gave up her newborn and never ever discussed it with any of us or in class ever again... the sudden divorces at the word of Sharon... the switching of partners amongst students... the coy statements Sharon would sometimes make to wealthier students about making more in their 1st story so that they could "share" their money with her ... All of this and many more moments have a new meaning. These events/moments all felt uncomfortable to me but I assumed (wrongly) that these people were making their OWN choices based on their innermost counsel for their spiritual evolution. In the cases where there was obvious and very public pressure to do something, I often agreed (this person really clearly does need to leave this job where they don't make much money and they are treated like shit... or the spouse who does not make them happy, etc.) But I neglected to question thoroughly the issue of people really being pushed. Of course they call this borrowing will and talk about how we are so mechanical we can never really do anything on our own, etc.
But what about the dignity we all need to have as human beings to make and live with our own choices? Shouldn't spiritual guidance be just the wisedom of a lampost in the dark that clearly illuminates the different paths and nothing more? We then make the choice.
Of course I often did feel (and respond to) lots and lots of pressure and manipulation, but I think I often also assumed that others were not in this same place of weakness with regards to this school. I was manipulated first into and then out of a relationship with a man in school. A painful situation which I interrepted as an indication of my lack of being (as opposed to being appalled at a "spiritual teacher" needing to be so intimately involved in our personal life choices ???)
The elaboration on the true meaning of freedom is necessary. I do believe that without experiencing, or even believing, the worst of this school, one can look at this idea of freedom and really begin to question school.
I feel so much freer now. So much lighter. I still can remember all those anxious, unhappy feelings associated with school and they are gone. Poof!!! No more!
I struggle in a different way now and my energy is freed to engage in that struggle more freely, more ernestly, than when it was preoccupied with being watched and evaluated and the need to report, report, report.
God does not care about the reporting! God is still there for me. And I am more available to God.
(originally posted 8/3/11, 3:32am)
To ArrangedMarriages,
I am a product of two such arranged marriages. My parents were brought together and ripped apart by the cult. Both parents re-married others (in the cult) and were again torn apart by the same forces.
Can you possibly imagine the psychological effects on their children? If they are too young to seek the truth, the lies and confusion follow them until they finally reach the age where the pieces start to fit together. Or perhaps they will never fully understand the transactions that took place.
When parents choose the cult over their own children, you can see the power that this group holds.
This cult has effectively marred not one but two generations of brilliant, talented, generous people.
August 3, 2011 3:32 AM
Thank you to Mantequilla and Let's Hope and Pray for your direct responses and sincere to my post.
I, too, am starting to remember moments that rang a little strange to me -- discussions about marriages, or divorces, that ... I don't know ... raised some red flags for me, but I didn't know why, because, without the context, the words themselves were pretty benign.
And, I am so sorry to hear, Mantequilla, that your childhood was marred by the f*cked-up craziness; but I guess I need to know the truth about this organization - so I thank you for sharing your painful story.
Ironically, my questioning of whether school really arranges and breaks up marriages, and the responses I've received, sheds light on school's, or a particular teacher's, complete lack of regard for my husband's concerns and for my marriage. I did realize in retrospect that when the help given was "Tell him to mind his own business" ... well, that was actually no help at all ... in fact it was pretty much designed to drive a deeper wedge between us.
So I thank God that something inside me was awake enough, and not under the spell of this strange and twisted system -- the work. What a bizarre chapter in my life!
Hummm...
A Fourth Wave School?
Did Rosie Narrate A Film For An Anti-Gay Group?
20 March 2002 | Studio Briefing - Film News | See recent Studio Briefing - Film News news »
Rosie O'Donnell was reportedly "shocked and disgusted" to learn that she narrated an Oscar-nominated documentary for a group that allegedly denies membership to gays, the New York Daily News reported today (Wednesday). The newspaper said that O'Donnell was so angered by what she has learned about the Fourth Wave School in New York, that she plans to ask the motion picture academy to disqualify the movie, Artists and Orphans: A True Drama from Oscar contention and may demand that her voice be removed from the film. However, David Goldstein, a lawyer for the film, says the charges against Fourth Wave School that it engages in discrimination against gays are "without foundation." »
My School Story-Part 27-By Cayce
Things were strange right from the start. I'm in East West Books. Roseann initiates a conversation with me. I start explaining Homeopathy, and at some point become acutely aware that most patrons can hear me. I distinctly recall providing a scenario where a woman goes to her doctor with vague complaints of feeling things just weren't quite right, so the doctor gives her a prescription for Valium, a pat on the ass, and sends her on her way. Roseann, seemingly impressed, asks if we can meet later as she has to meet someone to see a movie shortly.
She leaves and instantly becomes a vague memory hardly paid attention to, some mousy bookworm type.
Half an hour later I board the Path train back to NJ. Oddly, this woman at the back of the car catches my eye, maybe 12 feet away and I find myself wondering, "Is that the one I was talking to in the bookstore?" But it can't be, she was going to a theater a few blocks away. And she sees me and isn't coming over. Don't remember if I thought about Don Genero and his talk of his "double" in the Carlos Castenada books.
So we meet a couple hrs later in front of the bookstore. I had borrowed my buddy's car. Told her I wasn't really familiar with the eateries here so she directed me to an Indian restaurant a few blocks down and to the east. I made a joking comment about "Synchronicity" when I got a parking space almost right in front as it seemed apropos language to use for someone met in a New Age bookstore.
Now it's not that she looked different, but I saw her differently at this point. Initially I barely paid attention to her. Now I felt the need to after the train incident, and then not even being sure I'd recognize her in front of the bookstore.
Because we met in a New Age bookstore I figured conversation would remain in that arena. It pretty much did. I specifically asked her opinion of Scientology. She said she'd seen some of its adherents here and there at New Age fairs and they seemed OK, if not a bit glassy-eyed.
She seemed a bit intrigued when I spoke of most things being on a "downward spiral" and mentioned the Bible as a rare example of something one could point out as being on an "upward spiral" in its own evolution, and wondered where I'd gotten such concepts.
At one point she mentioned that "there are schools", and while I didn't pursue it, there was no doubt that she stressed the word "schools." If there was a transcript of our talks, that word would have been in italics.
I figured she was just talking about the Mystery Schools of antiquity. Or Masonic/Rosicrucian type teaching in modernity. She never mentioned anything 4th Way or that she was actually involved with a school that she wanted to introduce me to.
At some point between the initial bookstore meeting and our 3rd meeting I bought a copy of Ouspensky's "The Fourth Way" on a whim. As I said it was adjacent to the Alternative Medicine section. I went there constantly in search of some new Homeopathic treasure that might have just shown up. With nothing new I looked around since I had made the trip, and its title made me curious. I'd read futurist Alvin Toffler's "Future Shock" in '71 and knew he had a follow up called "The Third Wave." Anyway, the title made me not only wonder what the fourth way was, but the first three also. Already had it at 2nd meeting, but hadn't started it.
When I did read the first few pages, only to find the word "Schools" italicized this led to the previously described nervous pacing immediately prior to our third meeting in Part 17 above.
But on both the 1st & 3rd meetings at the Indian place she quoted me poems by Rumi, a Sufi Poet/Mystic.
To Be Cont'd
My School Story-Part 28-By Cayce
But on both the 1st and 3rd meetings at the Indian place she quoted me poems by Rumi, a Sufi Poet/Mystic. Years later I bought a book of his poetry, and it became blatantly obvious within but a few pages that he was a pedophile. As I did research into this matter I learned that this Homosexuality goes on to this day in the "Spiritual" Arab world.
They crave "the beardless ones," in other words, the prepubescent boys!
A few yrs ago, when one of my nephews was serving in the 10th Mountain Division in Afghanistan, he wrote me & told me about "Tuesday Doubles." This was a phenomenon he and his fellow soldiers witnessed once a week with night-vision binoculars whereby the Afghanis would sleep two to a single sleeping bag WITH A LOT OF MOTION GOING ON!
If there's any interest in this area I can dig up some links from a writer who's name escapes me at the moment who has oft written for the Asia Times. But it pisses me off that these 7th century fuckin' throwbacks want to destroy us for our immorality that we're spreading around the globe when it appears they should maybe be cleaning their own houses up first!
Yeah, Anonymous, I took note of that convenient "mistake" in that story also (4th Way/4thWave).
It was either purposely mis-stated on both occasions, or the 1st person, being unfamiliar, and thus relying on memory made a mistake, and then the School's lawyer took advantage of an excellent opportunity to muddy the waters and obfuscate the entire matter to help distance his client from further public scrutiny.
While I, myself, just glossed over it as a typo, I am so happy you had the good sense to see it as something that should be held under a microscope.
Good lookin' out!
Speak, Memory, you are absolutely correct with your post!
I have always taken the greatest pride in telling folks that there is nothing that you can't find on Ebay.
Well I stand corrected. There is no new or used copy of "Artists And Orphans: A True Drama" to be found there. Nor on Half .com!
And if you go to most film review sites like IMDb (internet movie database) you'll get Lianne, Sharon & Rosie's names AND THAT'S ALL. Not even a description of what it's about aside from 2 words (short/documentary).
This is truly "1984" where yesterday's news is erased from the record when it no longer fits the "Party Line."
Now we all expect this from Wikipedia. I'm sure most of you know this, but for those that don't, ANYBODY can go on Wiki and add or subtract ANYTHING from any subject story. That's why we had a post telling us all the cult stuff had been removed from Sharon Gans Wiki page.
I'll use Wiki myself for some quick info, but if you use it for SERIOUS research that you're gonna attach yer name to, yer an asshole!
I have previously commented on how "White" School was. I do not, however, believe that this was due to racism. At least not racism in a negative sense, ie., "We don't like Blacks" or "They're not intelligent enough."
I would, rather, suspect that the Teachers felt that "Blacks were TOO smart", ie., STREETWISE to be taken in by such a con. And, furthermore, the Teachers would have feared Blacks to be much more likely to LEARN from them, and then MOVE IN ON THEIR TERRITORY AND TAKE THEIR CRIMINAL ENTERPRISE OVER!
Oh, you think I'm just trying to be humorous?
Think again!
Who knows? Maybe some of my Brothas will "arrange" to have a meet with Sharon and Fred and Minerva and all the otha Teachas they can find on these pages and make them an offa dey can't refuse.
I mean all their home addresses are listed. All the School meeting place addresses are listed. All their work/business addresses.
How hard could it be for a Brotha ta find dese homies iffin' dey really had a mind to?
But I guess that might be better than running into someone whose life has been so totally destroyed that they've decided to end it all. And then suddenly thought, "Well, if I'm gonna end it all I got nuttin' ta lose. Might as well take someone with me. Now who was it that got me ta feelin' so low?"
The point I'm trying to make here is that so many of you seem to fear School and what it can still do to you even though you have left.
Don't you see how much they have to fear, too?
Sun Tzu wanted a Mossad approach. Well, Sun, do you think that if the boys down on Mulberry St had any idea what they could muscle in on that they would hesitate.
Bob Dylan said, "When ya ain't got nothing, ya got nothin' ta lose." It is also when you are most free.
Conversely, when ya got a lot ta lose...
They're even reading and discussing these posts in School now with their students who shouldn't even be on the internet.
Maybe they'll smarten up and quit while they're ahead before some of these fantasies manifest.
DISCLAIMER: I am not in any way, shape, or form encouraging any out there to act on any of these things mentioned above. I have already stated that an attitude of "the ends justify the means" almost certainly leads to evil. I am simply trying to "Empower" you by making you aware of the fact that WE'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT. School is just as vulnerable as you and me. SO SHED WHATEVER MENTAL SHACKLES STILL HOLD YOU DOWN.
Allow me to give you a new Mantra to repeat silently throughout the day to give you strength and new hope:
"SCHOOL AIN'T SHIT!"
I drove though Coleridge Corner Brookline the other day and saw the movie “Martha Mary May Marlene” (the award winning about a young woman exploited by a cult) was playing. How ironic, right across the street from Robert’s favorite morning coffee hangout. I wonder if he plans on seeing it?
Cayce
Do I detect homophobia in your comments about homosexuality? Or perhaps I misunderstand? Your statement appears both homophobic and racist: "7th century fuckin' throwbacks want to destroy us for our immorality that we're spreading around the globe when it appears they should maybe be cleaning their own houses up first!" I hope I have simply misunderstood.
Ah yes, the Fourth Wave...
I remember Sharon specifically saying that black people were not even attracted to "The Work" because they had their "OWN" Way. Now, which way was that? The first wave? or the Fifth Way? Doesn't make any sense that blacks have their own way. Unless it's the way of the ghetto? The way of rap music? The wave of Gospel music and speaking in tongues? No, my mistake, that was Sharon who was speaking in tongues, wasn't it?
THANK YOU to the hostess of the Boston "school escapees" gathering a few days ago. I thought the get together was fabulous! It was so good to see everyone, and to have such a diversity of students together was great—older, newer, from the 80’s, from CA, those who just left. Everyone was SO happy to be out and to see others out, too. It felt exuberant! So many great people and positive energy in the rooms!
I spoke to many people who were asking about former girlfriends and boyfriends; former wives and husbands; former best friends and lovers, former aim partners, sustainees and sustainers. If you're in school now, you most likely were remembered fondly and with concern by someone. Please know that we care for you and your welfare, and sincerely hope to see you at our next gathering. You have many friends on the outside, if you leave, you will not be alone. Be brave, take the leap!
SF, I am simply commenting (and expressing my outrage)on this general condemnation of ALL WESTERN VALUES by the many mouthpieces of Radical Islam and the hypocrisy thereby shown when Homosexuality is commonplace among them when the men have to be away from their women while at war. And by their supposed Holy Men recorded in THEIR OWN LITERATURE over the centuries, while at the same time THEY hang their own Gay youths.
I'm saying, "Before you start to criticize aspects of American Culture as Bad/Evil Decadent/Immoral or whatever, take a look at yourself. You know...glass houses.
My School Story-Part 29-By Cayce
OK, time to talk about a MAJOR subject in School: LYING!
I think we can all agree that lying is not a good thing. Why, it's even in one of The 10 Commandments.
The problem is that according to School almost everything is a lie. If you don't have PERSONAL knowledge of a particular matter, yet dare to speak of it, YOU ARE LYING!
We don't have to go to any ridiculous extremes to show how silly this is. You can't say that George Washington was the 1st president, cos you weren't there & didn't see it, therefore it's like a courtroom, all hearsay. Unless you're a physicist/mathematician you can't say that E=MC2 (sorry, keyboard won't let me make true "squared" sign). So suddenly you go from a rather knowledgeable being to a simpleton.
What can you say honestly? "I'd really like some crackers and jam right now."
Virtually your entire knowledge base has just been stolen from you. Does this make you a greater, more powerful being, or a pathetic loser? It just about puts you on the level of a vegetable. You have a memory, but can't use 99% of it. But School will teach you to follow the Sun, like a good plant!
Now sometimes Gurdjieff went backwards. I think we share about 98% of the same DNA with Chimps. Darwin says this is cos we evolved from Chimps. Gurdjieff says it's cos women, as usual, were causing trouble. He says they were having sex with animals, and that at certain times, when the planetary influences are just right, unlike creatures can successfully mate and produce offspring.
That's from Beelzebub's Tales To His Grandson. And despite being about 1400 pages long it's a pretty easy read. But only IF you can get past the 47 page Forward/Introduction.
Anyway, I sometimes agree with backward thinking. While we learn today that we are trying to evolve to advanced states like clairvoyance and telepathy, I think this was man's natural state, and that over time we felt the need to LEARN HOW TO LIE, so we could hide things, and so went through a phase of de-evolution.
C'mon, sing it with me: "Are we not men/We are Devo."
Wasn't that nice of my wife, she just brought me an ice cream cone, Chocolate Chip. Maybe it's cos I allowed her to read my Top Secret School Story the other night.
For our second meeting Roseann insisted on taking me to a Sushi Restaurant. I had made up my mind MANY yrs before that I wanted to try Sushi. I never told her this. I no longer wanted to cos I was smarter now, and aware of all the possible parasites. But she was determined to grant me my every subconscious wish, so she twisted my arm & I relented. She bummed a smoke off a woman across the table who said, "Once ya get past the smell, ya got it licked." An obvious little double entendre.
One of the very wrong ideas taught in the ganscult is that same sex love is not allowed. They actually tried to make people change, to do violence to their real natures, and in consequence did much psychological damage. The homophobia they teach is insidious and hard to unlearn upon leaving the cult. Bringing it to consciousness helps. Discussion of transgender was not current years ago, but I can imagine the teaching regarding transgender now would be equally misquided and harmful.
SF, I'm sure you're aware that Gurdjieff personally taught a group of Gay women. I'm just operating on memory here but I think they were sometimes referred to as "the ladies of the rope" or "women of the east bank" or something like that. Think they were 7 or 9 in number.
To River of Joy, I want to join you in thanking our gracious host and in lauding the recent escapee gathering in Boston! I must admit - I have met a lot of wonderful people through "school" and the party was fun! I guess it is natural that cults would attract great souls - open, searching, sincere, funny, smart. Let's raise a glass to all who are souls searching for meaning. There's certainly no crime in the wondering, one just has to learn how to discern the authentic from the exploitative, I guess.
I also appreciate how you reached out to those still in school. Thanks, again, River of Joy
"Ladies of the Rope: Gurdjieff's Special Left Bank Women's Group" by
William Patterson and Barbara C. Allen
This is the first book to examine the Rope, the special ladies-only group of spiritual seekers that G. I. Gurdjieff formed on Paris' Left Bank. All lesbians, except one, the group included such people as Margaret Anderson and Jane Heap, co-editors of the Little Review, the archetype of all avant garde literary magazines; Kathryn Hulme, author of The Nuns's Story and Undiscovered Country; Solita Solano, author, editor and companion of Janet Flanner who wrote for The New Yorker as Genet; and Georgette Leblanc, diva, actress and mistress of Maurice Maeterlinck, the Belgian playwright best known for The Blue Bird.
During his thirty-seven years of work in the West, Gurdjieff's creation of the Rope remains his most enigmatic. Recognizing, at the turn of the century, that the world would destroy itself unless there was an awakening in the West, he understood that a fundamental shock had to be applied. Although the Fourth Way was rooted in Tradition, nevertheless, he intentionally introduced this ancient esoteric teaching to the uninitiated.
Breaking vows of secrecy, in the hope that the originality, scale and practicality of the teaching would arouse enough people to undergo the rigors of self-awakening, he understood that he would be castigated by initiates and the uninitiated alike. That he took an even further risk and introduced the teaching to the ladies of the Rope is a subject which until now has never been examined. The conclusions reached by the author about why Gurdjieff created the Rope are as original as they are surprising and will be of serious interest to those involved with feminine spirituality in all its many forms.
Mantequilla said about arranged marriages and divorces: “I am a product of two such arranged marriages. My parents were brought together and ripped apart by the cult. Both parents re-married others (in the cult) and were again torn apart by the same forces.”
“ When parents choose the cult over their own children, you can see the power that this group holds. This cult has effectively marred not one but two generations of brilliant, talented, generous people.”
This is an extremely important statement and cannot be emphasized enough. I contend that all parents in school sincerely love and hold the best interests of their children in their hearts. However they are bullied, coerced and manipulated by Sharon and Robert into doing many things they would not normally do. Perhaps it’s called “valuation for the work”, “taking the help given”, “anti-mechanical”, “a being stretch”, or “a super effort”. This includes the dramatic emotional and physical upheavals of the numerous rounds of marriages and divorces, and the seemingly benign participation in school activities and aims on most nights and weekends. The unconscious message being delivered is “school is more important than my daughter/son” . This is a psychologically debilitating message that takes a toll on the emotional lives of the children involved. The consequences are significant; I have heard of numerous attempted suicides by the children of these school marriages. Unfortunately, this is not talked about in class and my guess is most parents in school don’t know this. The parents are being used to the nth degree by Sharon, and they end up woefully neglecting one of the most important tasks of their lives- loving and nurturing their sons and daughters.
Yes and what makes it even more insidious is that often parents are told that the best thing they can do for their children is to work hard on themselves (which in and of itself could certainly be a wonderful thing to say the least, but the true meaning here is of course "give your time/money/loyalty to school/Sharon...). We were taught specifically that dedicating ourselves to school and school endeavors would make us better parents and the vibrations of our work would bring great possibilities to our children's lives and our entire bloodline. I was several times encouraged to behave very, very neglectfully towards my child and I was often viewed as a bad student because I refused to follow the "help" (which I now see in some instances as nothing short of criminal). I'll never forget the lovely little tidbit from a teacher who insisted I wean my infant baby instantly in order to be able to participate more fully in a line of work (no humane, gradual weaning as recommended and practised by most sane folks. No, no it was to be sudden overnight ordeal...) I'm thankful I did not listen to this crap and did not follow most of the other outrageous advice I received... Since I was not there for long after my child was born, I can only hope that some good came out of this for my child, and more good than bad... When I left I actually worried a great deal about what the detrimental effects of leaving might be on my child--talk aobut insanity!!! Mantequilla, my heart goes out to you. The lies and the anger they create are poison. Your bravery in bringing this forward to help others will hopefully help in the process of healing.
Hummingbird,
Perhaps you, or one of the other posters, would be good enough to elaborate on the "we all came from the starry world" story oft told in School.
Roseann made reference to this by looking toward the sky, and saying, "I always knew I wasn't from here, that I was from the stars" on our first Indian restaurant meeting in the midst of an esoteric discussion. I never did get to hear it through the Teachers' mouths.
Also, I don't recall hearing the "Plato's Cave" story, either, during my short tenure.
I'm just curious if there's anything added that wasn't in G or O writings.
I know I was reading some stuff on another site and one of the false teachers incorporated 7 body types into his teachings, supposedly taken from an unconnected author. This author said G or O never wrote anything about "body types". He is mistaken. I distinctly recall Gurdjieff claiming quite a few body type, maybe 28 or 39.
TY S.F. for expanding on my vague memory of G. teaching a Gay Women's group.
TY River for forcing me to read a review/synopsis in The New Yorker on "Martha Marcy May Marlene" as I will certainly see this DVD. Also for your eloquent comments on families torn apart. It makes me wonder all the more if we were not all a part of a mind control experiment. What better "test" than to see if parents could be made to go against their every natural instinct. I remember reading a story yrs ago of a mother cat in a NJ animal shelter that had lost an eye and had one ear burnt off as she returned again and again into the burning abandoned building where her litter was. She could only carry one at a time. Are these Teachers so pernicious that they seek to subvert our urges to that of below even our pets?
Let's Hope, you certainly did the right thing. Far beyond passing along natural immunity to diseases, and nourishing your child, breast feeding is one of the most incredibly powerful means of letting the baby know LOVE through the sense of touch.
To have stopped it "on a dime" would have been analogous to causing a junkie to go through "cold turkey" withdrawal! The child would have perceived it as a total loss of love, and it would have been traumatic. And I am not exaggerating in the least here.
While I choose now & then to poke fun at some of my past studies, I know the truth when I see it.
Here is the url to a youtube video clip about the Gans group, created by Defense Against Evil:
http://bit.ly/suCIQ6
The video is a compendium of photos -- leaders of the Gans group, as well as shots of real estate properties either owned by the group or controlled by various members of the cult.
The "wide open spaces" photos are of the Condon ranch in Montana. The snow covered buildings are of the former retreat compound in Pawling, NY. The gated entrance is to Gans' former residence (destroyed by fire) in Mahopac, NY. The photo of the Plaza Hotel shows the side of the building where Gans' current NYC residence is -- fourth floor, facing Central Park.
Those of us who have been around this site awhile may be very familiar with these images. The real value, I suggest, is for those who never knew of certain group activities (Montana, Pawling), or who've never connected the "teachers" they knew to this larger entity.
TY Darkness Hates The Light,
I watched that video a few days ago, but was disappointed that there was no audio or printed text to identify the Teachers.
View it as suggested by "Darkness", but visit www.StopSharonGans.blogspot.com afterwards to see photos with names of the same people. It will also give you addresses/photos to the properties, or provides links to other sites with the addresses, along with copies of legal paperwork from the sales/tax records, etc.
These people are no longer secret, the veil is rent (Biblical speak for ripped open). We can see the imposter Wizards behind the curtain. And since they claim to have gotten Obama elected, let's give them an Arab Spring, an Occupy Wall Street movement. It could be as simple as a "letter to the Editor" of your local newspaper. Wait, I'm sorry. That couldn't possibly help. Your lone letter/e-mail/phone call couldn't possibly add to the "Death By A Thousand Cuts" effect of all of us working together.
No, I've already admitted that the 300 kids in the schoolyard will never realize that if they just all worked together to kick the Bully's ass, they'd all be safe.
I remember Minerva once saying "I" or "We" "don't cotton to that" and trying to figure out whether she originally hailed from the South, or if it was simply a comment directed at a particular student from Southern roots that would receive such a phrase well.
Just a random memory.
BTW, the YouTube video & the website given are both created by Defense Against Evil.
I go over, and over, and over the posts on this page; my own as well as those of others. Each time seeing/learning something missed previously. Very much like School going over the Ouspensky material repeatedly.
I wasn't married while in School. I find it amazing that one could convince their mate that it was OK/safe for them to disappear twice a week for anywhere from two to six hours at a time without arousing suspicion. And FOR YEARS, NO LESS!
Let's not take this any farther. Any NORMAL man or woman would at some point, be it two weeks or two years, start to suspect their mate was having an affair. Who in the fuckin' world would suspect his wife had been hoodwinked by a cult (in a worst case scenario), or that her husband was seeing his genuine Spiritual Teacher (best case scenario) behind her back?
The first thing we have to realize is WHAT INCREDIBLE FUCKIN' LIARS THIS SYSTEM HAS TRAINED US TO BE!!!
And ya REALLY need to take a few seconds to pause here and think a bit about that last sentence. As you gotta know by now I can go on and on. But even I'm gonna stop in the hope you'll reflect on the above!
I think it's worthwhile to repost some comments I made on lying from an older thread:
(part 1)
What is striking to me is the incredible amount of lies and deception that we were subjected to in School. Particularly disturbing is how soon we were trained to perpetuate the pattern of deceit. Before a new student attends their first class, a "cover story" for their friends and family is created. Perhaps the new recruit's wife or husband, friends or family are told that it's a Tai Chi Class, a writers group, or a women's group. The last thing School wants is for the truth to be known: that you're attending a spiritual group (or so it claims to be), that there is a tuition, that there are a few rules that you must follow, all of which have to do with secrecy and protecting the group from any sort of public scrutiny. Robert and friends will tell you that they are helping you think for yourself, but eventually the leaders will ask for your unquestioning obedience, and if you won't give it to them you will be publically shamed and humiliated in class until you ultimately bend to their will. Thinking and acting on your own is “SELF WILL”. Watch out for that phrase, that label, that accusation delivered in the most derogatory tone. If you're a “good student”, you will avoid it and march to the party line. And then you're truly hooked. They have you.
Until I left, I never understood why it was OK to lie in Life, but one must never ever, ever, ever lie to a teacher. It's a double standard, for sure. A red flag that I regrettably ignored in my early years with the group.
There's the beaucoup lies that a student tells in one's life: lie to your spouse, lie to your friends, lie about your work history or how much money you make, lie about where you go on class nights, lie about why you get home so late, lie about how much you spend on classes, lie about where you live, lie about the real reason why you're talking to someone in a bookstore, lie that you don't know the group putting on the lecture series, lie when you write the lecture itself.
And the litany of lies goes on and on, and eventually you start lying to yourself: you really enjoy the classes, that you don't mind staying up late two nights a week, that the lack of sleep isn't affecting your ability the think and reason correctly, that School and it's ever increasing demands are not affecting your health, your job, your relationships, your bank account. You may even lie to yourself and say you don't mind the bullying and coercion that goes on in third line meetings; you feel privileged to be in the select group that recruits new students.
on lying - part 2
Most older students will swear to you that their life has been greatly enriched by their involvement with school. They lie to themselves. Behind such statements lies a multitude of woes and ugliness: mysterious health problems related to lack of sleep, credit card debt, lost jobs, broken marriages, children with emotional issues. They are under the illusion that they are living rich and full lives. This is a grand illusion, and their vanity and egos allow them to buy into this deception. The reality is that most older students devote their time, energy and hard earned dollars toward a group that promises transformation and rebirth, and then fails to deliver. They don't know or refuse to believe that their precious and special group has a dubious history or that their teachers totally lack any credentials.
Perhaps the biggest lie, the most offensive deception is that School claims to be doing THE WORK; the implication is that they are doing the work of God. This is far, far from the truth. To see this, you need to wake up. To see this, you need to be able think, feel and sense for yourself, without the influence of School and its leaders. To see this, you need to have the courage to listen to the all the little nagging voices inside that you've been ignoring, the red flags you've pushed away all these years. To see this, you need be strong enough to admit you spent the last 10 or 20 or 30 years pursuing the wrong path and a false dream. Once you see this, you may feel compelled to leave behind your friends, your secretive and esoteric lifestyle, and your illusions about your value in the world.
And trust me, once you leave you will heave a massive sigh of relief, and you will feel truly free. Free from the weight of all the lies and deception.
River of Joy,
You summed it up very well. Especially the long, un-nerving and demoralizing moment when one has to admit the lie to oneself. From which real freedom then comes.
To River of Joy - Thanks for boiling down the process of deception so clearly.It was so helpful to read. I am a recent escapee, so I am still very much in the throes of realizing the extent of the deception that I'd been buying into ...
And Ajax - thanks for pointing out that the moment when one realizes s/he's been duped, is the moment where real freedom begins. I am definitely experiencing that.
The feeling of freedom began for me with the realization that I was staying in school out of fear -- if I left, of course, my life would fall apart. The next realization was that I couldn't continue to make decisions out of fear and what felt right to me was leaving. And then I realized that it was the first time in probably five years that I had such a clear sense of what I felt was right. And that connection to self, to inner knowing, that was freedom.
I thought to myself, I don't have to ask permission to leave, or for "help", I can just leave. What an epiphany. Isn't it strange what we can start accepting as normal somehow.
Man - it feels great to be out!
Thank You, River, for so candidly sharing that all important ACTUAL School reality. I am so glad you chose to re-post that part of your story.
It's kinda interesting where we get "teaching" from. Almost 40 yrs later I still remember parts of an article I read in Playboy. It had to do with the subject of how hard it is to change. It used the analogy of waiting in line at a bank. This is before the ingenious idea of a single snaking line where the one in front goes to the next available teller. Used to be that there'd be a separate line for each individual teller window.
Anyway, the line would be long and taking forever. After 10 or 15 minutes you couldn't help but notice that some folks that entered the bank AFTER you had already been taken care of and left. So there was no doubt that you'd made the wrong choice when you picked the line you were on.
Kinda like School explaining that Earth was, unfortunately, in a rather bad spot in the Universe, and that this was one of the main reasons life was so difficult for its inhabitants.
But it's not as simple as just stepping over to another line. After all, there's no guarantee that that line won't suddenly stall after you get on it. You might even watch the guy that was previously behind you finish his business and leave WHILE YOU"RE STILL WAITING on the new line...then you'd really be pissed.
Psychologically, a lot comes down to INVESTMENT. You've invested so much time on your line that if you change now, you'll have to admit you were a fool. And the longer you stay on that line the harder it is to get off.
I've never forgotten that little teaching, even while I couldn't remember what one of the featured Bunnies looked like if my life depended on it.
Anyway, the point is that the longer one is in the group, the harder it is to leave. It is a MONUMENTAL thing to admit to one's self that he, or she, may have wasted such a huge portion of their life. Their only chance is take hold of whatever was positive and life affirming in the experience...and discard the rest like trash. I still remember Minerva talking about how holding on to certain experiences/emotions was tantamount to "EATING SHIT!" I'm sure she rehashed that particular lesson over the years.
This is only one page long, fairly large print, not much effort required, so READ IT.
http://psychology.about.com/od/historyofpsychology/a/milgram.htm
I read about this experiment in 1974 and tho I was not even old enough to buy a beer yet, I had my finger firmly on the pulse of Humanity. Before viewing the answer I guessed 72% would go all the way.
100 Yale Seniors polled said anywhere from 0 to 3% would go to the limit.
If ya don't wanna use the link, just Google "Yale Milgram Experiment"
I'm sure I saw Richard Basehart of "Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea" do a TV Docu-drama about this study yrs ago.
It'll help you understand "How the hell did I just sit there and allow my friends to be attacked mercilessly in School?"
Ya might even begin ta see the German People weren't Monsters in WWII (at least not any more than you or I...Ya might even get ta witness it personally with all the forces in this country trying to demonize the Jews in the Occupy Wall Street movement).
God, how I love football, my one petty weakness. Joe Flaco threw a TD to beat the Steelers with under 20 seconds to play! (Game just ended).
I called Don Raskopf last Saturday. Didn't hear back from him all week. Called him again this Saturday & left a message. Called him again tonight about 9 PM EST (Sunday 11/6/11) and left another message.
Being a Saturday and he answered, I assumed it was his home phone. I was a bit nervous under the circumstances and probably talked too quickly. Told him I'd been inspired by his 4th Way posts and fearless naming of names & that I'd been up all night but would like to talk to him at length later. Asked him if he had my number on his machine. He said yes, and then sounded like he was talking to others in the room, something about "all the power has gone off." I say bye.
Sounds like the start of a low budget TV thriller, but that's it so far.
But, more on to pertinent subject matter, I spent 2 or 3 hrs last night reading many, many posts on different threads on this site. I see that Diogenes and I are kindred spirits. He can post as often as me when he chooses. And I learned that School is now producing its own "little black book." Apparently some variation of Ouspensky's "In Search Of The Miraculous." But where it should refer to "G.", it refers to a "K."
I guess this is so new students have no possibility of tracing this teaching to its rightful source, thereby making them totally dependent on this false School to get these ideas.
Some talked of trying to sue them for this, but Ouspensky's been dead so long I'm not sure it's even under copyright.
I know I bought a CD-Rom on Ebay a few yrs back with about 20 Gurdjieff/Ouspensky/Collin books on it for 10 or 20 bucks that I can read on my computer screen.
Don, besides handing out flyers outside the meeting places, why not have 10 people enter and sit among the students. Then, at some point, all stand up and remove their jackets to reveal Seattle Seahawk jerseys (preferably the old blue ones) and confront the Teacher(s), no longer alone and afraid. Bring some Mace spray if ya think ya gotta.
Can't ya just see them checkin' people at the door & making them take off their sweatshirts & jackets now?
What about it present students? Do they give you a black book? Buy Ouspensky's "In Search of" and "The Philosophy Of Man's Possible Evolution" and see if it's the same teaching. If you find this to be true, will you have the courage to ask your TEACHER why they have to be so deceptive?
SFstudent, I don't know if you are aware, but long before you suspected me of Homophobia I had referred folks on this site to the following Dave Archer 4th Way story. He is quite proud to be Gay, yet thoroughly ashamed of how he, himself, was made by this group to berate his own Lover in School as you can read here:
http://www.davearcher.com/alex.html
Beyond that, I saw the Tom Robinson Band live at the Capital Theater in Passaic, NJ approx 79-80. They had a number of songs playing on NYC FM radio at the time, the most memorable one being "Sing If You're Glad To Be Gay."
And my 4th post was lyrics by Eleanor McEnvoy. I don't know if she is Gay or not, but her website at the time featured a review that described her as "a leather clad Gay Icon."
Nuff said.
As to your wondering as to racism on my part, I was the Shop Steward at the job that I had while in School. I was elected by my co-workers, not appointed by the Union. It was 66% Puerto Rican/33% Black........and me!
And I only mention this by way of following the example of Ashiata when he was criticized for a comment that he made but preferred to remain Anonymous. When he was asked something like, "well what the hell are you doing?" he informed the poster he started this site!
And while we're on the subject, ya don't hafta click "Anonymous" ta post anonymously. Ya can click "Name/URL" and then type "John Smith" (or whatever, just so ya can be referred to in responses) and not list any URL.
Random thoughts during my morning commute on the ol' "life is a pain factory" line. Yes, it can be, but isn't it funny that it's Sharon and Robert that are creating so much of it? Criticism and intimidation masked as help. Mind-fucking encouragement to be your true self, except in class, where if you disagree you'll be pushed down by public embarrassment, have your words twisted so your objection is made irrevelant, etc.
"You are here to work on yourself, and we'll give you more than a lifetime supply of things that are wrong with you so you never make any measurable progress and shrivel slowly in frustration and despair - making it easier to suck more money and time for our greedy use."
What a good business idea - say a mechanic says your car needs a lot of work, and of course, he's the one with the knowledge of how to fix it. Every time you bring it in, he bashes and smashes here and there so it's never really fixed or better. He just keeps telling you that now you have to work on something else, and if he hadn't called it to your attention, well, aren't you lucky he did? That would guarantee a steady supply of business, wouldn't it? The one who tells you they can fix it is the one who trashes it. It's all so simple now.
Why are they listed in TimeOut New York as a cult with a "KoolAid" factor (only a one!), yet they can operate unpunished?
Because we let it.
Specific charges and action are needed. Or we let it go, let go of that crazy chapter in our lives and move on with the best of what we can take with us, and let it rot by itself.
Sharon, Robert, Fred, etc. won't live forever. But there are twisted souls waiting in the wings and more than happy to continue their self-delusion.
Anonymous (of Nov 7 comment),
You nailed it, with the metaphor car mechanic slowly vandalizing the car as he extracts gratitude and money for the endless repair work. Exactly so.
Do you really think the "next generation" will be able to carry on this scheme? I wonder if it won't be a case of removing the batteries from a mechanical toy -- it'll just stop.
Keep contributing, if possible with a clever pseudonym that let's us identify your voice and respond more simply.
Anonymous of Nov 7 is Amazed & Grateful - I just got lazy with the posting process. I keep forgetting my password to alternate gmail acct.
No need of a password/g-mail account. Just click "Name/URL" instead of "Anonymous" and type in "John Smith" or whatever. You can leave the URL field blank.
I left this info on a post last night, but it appears to have never made it here.
My School Story-Part 30-By Cayce
I'd like to address the issue of "You'll die like a dog" or "Your life will turn to Shit" without School.
Immediately after leaving School I met my future wife, wooed/courted her, and successfully won her. All probably in about 45 days. And, unlike your "Teachers," I'm still with my wife after 23 yrs. Why are Fred & Minerva no longer together if they indeed understand the LAWS that they claim to be passing on to you? They tell you the poor slobs in the outside world have many "I's" which equates to "a house divided against itself cannot stand." This explains why they have no true "WILL" and often find themselves going 180 degrees counter to their original AIM, which is why divorce is rampant. THEY (Teachers) claim, however, to understand the RAY and OCTAVE and needed SHOCKS. Funny how ALL OF THE TEACHERS in this phony School can't make one single personal marriage last!
The years immediately following were some of the most creatively productive of my entire life. I continued to study School material from the originators, themselves, WITHOUT GETTING BRAINWASHED INTO BELIEVING that I needed Fred & Minerva to make use of it. While I don't actually remember their eye colors, they are SO FULL OF SHIT that they must be brown!
Diogenes says he was saved by a Blessing disguised as a Curse: a mental breakdown.
Ajax describes how his life was in shambles on multiple levels (emotionally, financially, etc.) when he left.
As I have already stated, I had a rather positive School experience. I attribute this to my short stay of 75 days. I considered my School experience a "Sacred Trust" and pretty much kept it to myself for 23 yrs. I only speak of it now because I believe the horror stories I am reading here and on similar pages, and realize that some of them could have been my own fate had I remained.
I am in no way, shape or form a "disgruntled former student." I VERY MUCH valued what I got from School. I am just glad I didn't hang around long enough to be programmed into thinking I was TOTALLY DEPENDENT on Teachers more concerned with their own material/power needs than my personal welfare.
Don't they still teach you to personally verify everything before accepting? That's kinda hard to do when ya can't even ask questions that the Teachers find uncomfortable without making sure you'll be attacked SO BRUTALLY/PUBLICLY that you'll never even consider such a course of action ever, ever again.
Has it happened to you? Have you witnessed it happening to others (while you felt SO BAD for them, but bit your tongue in COWARDLY SILENCE, lest similar wrath be unleashed upon YOU)?
And why so afraid? Did they pull a Scientology "confessional" on you. Travolta and Cruise are SLAVES to that cult cos they admitted they like other guys. WHO GIVES A FUCK? I think Cruise in early life began to study for the priesthood. He was probably introduced to Gay life in the Seminary. Or maybe it's just his natural inclination. Once again, WHO THE FUCK CARES?
But if you are being blackmailed in some fashion, isn't that all the more reason to get out? Christ, just start acting crazy and force them ta throw ya out, then ya won't hafta worry about them outing whatever dirty little secret you're afraid of!
Nuff fer now.
seen here:
Thank you to whomever included photographs.
Now I know:
http://carolbaroudi.wordpress.com/2011/06/16/sidling-up-to-sustainable-it/
"I grew up with too many evangelicals not to get squeamish with things that seem to border on the testimonial."
I have seen this person removing posters that educate passersby about "School." I am considering confronting her and asking her to stop, though I don't know what the outcome might be.
Suggestions welcome.
Hi WATCHING,
I visited your suggested site, but failed to see any connection with its contents and matters discussed on this page.
Are you saying that this woman, Carol Baroundi, is the one taking down signs posted in Boston trying to warn locals about the Boston 4th Way School?
Sorry if I have misunderstood the obvious.
But since this touches on the whole "Green" movement, let's examine it a bit. Is the average temperature of the Earth raising slightly in recent yrs? Yes. But, did you know the average temperature on Mars is increasing to the same degree? Remember we have a few Mars Rovers up there monitoring this stuff. And Mars is where Beelzebub/Gurdjieff monitored us from in "Tales."
This demonstrates that the increase in temp is mainly due to natural heating/cooling cycles outside of man's control, as they affect all the planets in this Solar System. Just read some Dickens novels to grasp hold of the fact that air pollution was much worse 100-150 yrs ago. In London it was hard to tell day from night.
And the shyster himself, Al Gore, owns a company making him even richer by trading "Carbon Credits." If my company becomes so clean that I produce 50% less pollution than I'm allowed, I can sell this "Credit" to another company producing more pollutions than they are allowed. Al Gore's company handles these transactions and he profits greatly from it.
That being said, of course we can't be dumping 55 gallon drums of toxic chemicals in rivers and such. But Greenies have to keep their eyes opened, too, and avoid being used as mindless pawns by those using "Green" as a vehicle of profit.
Dear Watched:
I am so glad that the photographs are helpful!!
That's why they are there. These people need to be identified so everyone knows who they are. And also so new students can find out about the group that they are involved with and get out as fast as they can.
If anyone has any other photographs of people in "school" please send them to me at: defenseagainstevil@safe-mail.net and I will make sure they are posted on the internet.
Yes, Cayce, Watched is saying that Carol Baroudi is taking down posters warning people about "school." She can take them down all she wants, they will still go up. The website is Carol's blog. She is a "teacher" in the Boston school but shouldn't be because she is totally heartless and has no compassion for anyone.
Watched, by all means confront her if you see her again. Saying nothing means that we are conforming to "their" rules. You are not in school anymore, play by your own rules. I'm not sure that confrontation will get you anywhere though, she is pretty well brainwashed. Better still, put up more flyers.
EVERYONE SHOULD PUT UP FLYERS! AS MANY AS YOU CAN AND EVERYWHERE THAT YOU CAN!!
KEEP PUTTING THEM UP!! NEW YORK and BOSTON.
Power to the people!
Take back your lives!
Make up your own flyers or if you want some that are already done, just ask me,
Cayce, yes it is obvious. Anyone who has been in established cult for over 20 years who can say:
"I grew up with too many evangelicals not to get squeamish with things that seem to border on the testimonial" has really got to have drunk way too much Kool-Aid...
Thank you, Defense Against Evil. Yes, you have understood.
If she is heartless, better not to confront. Better to inform, massively. Where?
helpful: http://www.spokeo.com/
Be creative.
Dear Watching,
Why not confront?
Don't know what the outcome would be? What could she do? Slug you? Physically assault you? I highly doubt it.
The worse thing that could happen? She yells, gets belligerent? Big deal. You've got your own convictions to stand on.
You can say, Hey - "I'm out to protect the unsuspecting from a serious scam. If you are above board and not afraid of exposure, then file a formal complaint. We can even ask that policeman over there if he knows the law about taking down messages to the public without consent from the poster (point vaguely into the distance and pretend you see a police car.) Would you care to join me and defend your position?
No? Then back off and go work on a lecture or something to rope in your new recruits.
Take a friend with you when you suspect you'll run into her.
She cannot hurt you.
DefenseAgainstEvil,
Thank you for contributing again to this blog. Your site and your Youtube vid tell me you have the sleuthing skills, tenacity and hunger-for-truth of a good investigative journalist. We need them. The piling-of facts, facts, facts (including photographs) is one way to build awareness among all of us. So many of us -- particularly those recently out -- still have only pieces of the puzzle.
I thank you and "Watched" for the recent exchange about Baroudi. An anecdote that sheds light on the practice of "external consideration with ten times the effort." I happened to pass through "the office" during a New York Christmas class, at which the Boston group was present. "The office" was where "the teachers" had their private gatherings during the class. Terry Christgau wondered out loud if anyone knew where Carol was; she had been in the office earlier but now wasn't. Robert Klein leans over to Terry and whispers, "You really want to spend your time finding out why Carol Baroudi isn't in the office?" Lovely. This was the same evening when Robert leaned over and, again whispered to Terry, this time about Sharon, "It's my job to get her here. It's your job to keep her here." So much love for each other, it takes the breath away!
Just saw "Martha Mary May Marlene" this evening. Most of you know the "facts" of the film do not exactly align with our common experience. Not exactly. But it was close enough in some ways, and had plenty of moments that evoked the intense, remorseless psychological terror of the Gans group.
I wasn't sure I could handle it, and it triggered a lot of rage, but I am glad I saw it. Glad not to be making any major life decisions in the immediate aftermath of seeing the movie.
I, too, saw Martha Marcy May Marlene this evening. I thought it was quite good. Most will be disappointed with the ending, just cos they want the standard "beginning, middle and end" of a movie.
Michael Savage often counters such arguments with "people just don't understand good Jazz music. They don't realize that sometimes the "situation" is sufficient."
I fully agree with him here.
I have read posts where folks freely admit they were unable to make the simplest decision even 10 yrs after leaving School. We are left with such an ending in this movie. And don't worry, I won't give anything away.
If any would care to check his show out, you can go to www.conservativereview.us to hear his most recent show in its entirety, commercial free.
For what it's worth, Savage is the product of a School, tho not 4th Way. He is decidedly far right wing (as am I these days). His Teacher was probably Roy Masters, the father of Talk Radio Network CEO Michael Masters.
I can also point you to far left wing School products, like Valerie Van Isler of WBAI 99.5 FM in NYC. She is of a more Black Radical bent. I only mention this cos we have already broached the subject of whether or not there are Schools for Blacks. Not sure of her School background, but it would seem to be centered around "The Tree Of Life" bookstore in Harlem.
Schooling, quite obviously, does not guarantee one will emerge with identical beliefs/politics. Guess it depends on the School.
WATCHING, I re-visited www.StopSharonGans.blogspot.com 5 mins after replying to you and saw her name there (Carol Baroudi). I humbly apologize for not being more familiar with the Boston School names, I was in NYC.
DEFENSE, sorry to you, too (tho I have oft mentioned your name & websites & videos in my posts).
But I've got to get on with My School Story
To Be Cont'd
My School Story-Part 31-By Cayce
Like in Martha Marcy May Marlene, the Leader/Teacher is so often a "Father Figure." Sometimes it is an actual Father. As I said, the immediate yrs following my departure from School were some of my most productive/creative. What follows is the ACTUAL biography of someone dear to me (and her family) done in song form 10/21/89.
Am/Am/Am/Am
Well, it's a (Am)Game I can't (G)win
Yet I've no-(D)-choice but to (Am)play
Since you're the (Am)one we de(G)pend on
I must-(D)-do whatever you (Am)say
And it's-(C)-got me so mixed up
I just-(Am)-don't know what to do
There's something (G)terribly wrong here
Is it (Am)me, or is it you?/G/D/Am/Am/
It's not the shadows in the dark
That got me tremblin' thru my tears
It's not the scary nite-time stories
That have brought about these fears
But when I see you in the doorway
And I know what you're gonna do
Well, that's what scares me, Daddy, yeah
What scares me is YOU!
Remember, I remember
That first night when all things changed
How my innocence was stolen
And my life became so strange
Well, since that night I've lost my smile
And I've gained this sense of SHAME
Since that night I've become UGLY
Since that night, nothing's the same!
Well, you can't say "no" to Daddy
Even if you feel you should
And anyway it doesn't matter
It just wouldn't do no good
I've tried to stop him thru my struggles
I've tried to reason with my wit
But the ravages just continue
I've no strength left, so I submit
Well I can't tell nobody
Cos they wouldn't understand
Yes, I can hear the rumors now
They'll say, "She's fuckin' her old man"
Well there's no one I can turn to
I guess that's just the way it goes
And it's no use to tell my Mother, no
Because she already knows!
Avoidance and denial
Has become the rule of the day
Tho Mama knows what's goin' on
She always looks the other way
And then they tell you "You're an Angel"
A "Pixie" or an "Elf"
And you're not supposed to hate your parents
So you just learn to hate yourself!
Well, these days I'm grown & married
And my husband knows the score
And when we fight he says it's my fault
Says I'm just "a little whore"
Well, how come nothin' ever changes
No matter what ya do?
And I wonder back at home
What my little sister's goin' thru!
Well, it's a game I can't win
Yet I've no choice but to play
My School Story-Part 32-By Cayce
Another School rule was that you couldn't use drugs. The readers and I probably see different reasons for this. I suspect the readers of this page have become so jaded by the False Teachers of this School that they figure money spent on drugs would lessen their ability to pay tuition.
I saw it quite differently while I was there. I attended FULLY EXPECTING to find THE MIRACULOUS. Maybe we only get what we want, what we're honestly seeking.
Another book I read in '74 at the beginning of my quest was "Be Here Now" by Ram Dass, who was actually Richard Alpert, Timothy Leary's best friend. I have joked about his "Spiritual" name in the past. Ram means God. Dass means Teacher. Thus, Teacher of God. Many American youths nowadays get Asian tattoos on their bodies believing them to represent some DEEP spiritual TRUTH. Often they are mocked by those that apply these things with sayings equivalent to "Cheap White Whore" when they think it says "Female Servant Of The God-Force."
I used to joke that maybe it was Rammed Ass, like he'd been fucked over.
But, since he was a Teacher of mine at one point, I remember a section in his book with instruction on Yoga (Union with God). He pointed out that if you went into this practice with the sole aim of getting a beautiful body, that's all you would get. But if you did the exercises with the intention of uniting with God, you would! Plus you'd get a great body.
I'm still confused (to put it very mildly) how none of you seemed to expect things "Miraculous" from a School whose Bible was "In Search Of The Miraculous", and why you stayed there SO LONG without finding anything of that nature?
I expected it from the start, and found it from the start. Other aspects, however, made me uncomfortable, so I left.
Anyway, not to belabor the point, I felt from Day One that drugs could not be used simply because they supplied "PLAUSIBLE DENY-ABILITY" to the student's experience of the Miraculous. After the fact (if it ever occurred) the student would later attribute these things to their imaginations, fueled by drug usage.
Once again, from "Be Here Now": The Guru's Grace is like the ocean. If one approaches the ocean with but a tea cup, complain not about the niggardliness of the ocean. (And I haven't seen a copy in over 30 yrs, but I'd bet my life I'm pretty accurate).
So, either a lot of you are being a lot less than forthcoming on these pages, or the only ones to experience such things are still stuck in a corrupt School. There are, of course, other possibilities, but I think most are in one of these two camps.
Nuff Fer Now!
Has anyone out there heard the concept of "essence shame"? Robert referred to it once and I am wondering if it came from Gurdjieff, or was a Klein creation?
I certainly never came across the tern "essence shame" in any work by Gurdjieff. But terms like "stupid sincerity" usually originated in Maurice Nicoll's 5 volume Psychological Commentaries and eventually found their way into School parlance.
Minerva did speak of "Shame" as a "Sacred Emotion" since it meant that the individual experiencing it had learned an important lesson regarding some past action, or lack thereof.
But if it was used, I'm sure someone will say.
My School Story-Part 33-By Cayce
Now since one of the readers kind enough to comment on my writings mentioned "Orchestrated Reality", yes, this did occur during my recruitment period with Roseann.
We "conveniently" ran into one of her good friends who was walking his dog as we were walking to, or from, one of our restaurant meeting places. She politely excused herself to say hi to him. So I witness this whole thing from about 10 feet away. Rather than the standard quick handshake or quick little peck on the cheek, the two engage in a mutual full body hug lasting an unexpectedly long time, maybe 15 seconds.
And, yes, it worked. It was impossible not to reflect back on that event when she finally broached the subject of a School she dearly wanted to introduce me to, filled with others much like myself. Not to mention that I'd recently broke up with the now cured Anorexic Joann.
And after I'd purchased Ouspensky's "The 4th Way" and found the word "Schools" italicized in its first few pages, I racked my brain trying to figure out if she had a confederate working at the bookstore who told her I'd bought it.
When I e-mailed her about 3 weeks ago, I very purposely worded it in a way that would force her to respond, making it quite clear that I knew EVERYTHING about her, ie., new last name from marriage, her almost completed degree to be a Marriage/Family Therapist, her address. I could have told her how many panes of glass were in each front window. Whether she was still in School, or not, I knew a simple polite request to communicate would simply go unanswered, so I used "the Way of the sly man" to guarantee a response. And I figured coming off as if I knew everything about her was "Poetic Justice" since it was the same tact she'd used on me, a 23 yr delayed case of "Instant Karma."
Still considering my School experience a "Sacred Trust" at the time of that writing, I didn't discuss anything about it explicitly on the printed page, tho I did include "School" and "G." in the e-mail title so it would not be simply deleted before being read cos she didn't know the sender.
BTW, I read that Alex Horn had unusual hands, that he had completely smooth palms, with no lines on them, such as a "palm reader/fortune teller" would use to prognosticate. Can anyone out there confirm this?
And as stated previously, I never had to be interviewed by someone higher up to get into School. Is this unusual? Or was Roseann a "Higher Up?"
Please check your safe-mail "in" box.
Cayce - regarding your question about being interviewed before being invited to School - do not feel slighted in the least by not being interviewed. The interview process was instituted after you left the group.
The recruiting process evolved over time. When I was recruited it was fairly basic. Two guys approached me in a New Age bookstore in Harvard Square. They said they were working on a class project and would I help them? They asked me an open ended question, “what did I think about Shakespeare?” A brief discussion ensued and I was invited to an open meeting at a nearby bar in an hour or two. Myself and several other potential recruits met with a few of the older students in Boston. We must have been screened in some fashion, but it felt more like a casual discussion in a bar. The Idea of hidden schools was presented, and an invitation extended. In those days you paid in advance, so I was told to meet one of the men who recruited me on a street corner in Brookline with $250.00 in cash a few days. (what was I thinking?) I showed up, cash in hand, and he took me to the secret meeting spot 3 or 4 blocks away. I was not the only one who started that night.
Eventually this method didn’t work anymore. No surprise there.
At first we were told to make friends and then invite them if they seemed right for school. At one point Minerva was coming frequently to Boston to teach and lead the recruiting effort. She started to formalize the process by turning the pressure up to get new students in the door. The expectation was that we would have 15 meetings a week with new recruits, and ideally have 3 back to back meetings a night. We had to report on this in every class, and those that didn’t come close to meeting these demands were publically reprimanded and humiliated. I believe this is also when the recruiting structure of smaller groups reporting to captains was instituted. Aims were set to bring a large amount of students in a short amount of time. Minerva made it clear that it this was her aim, and she was accountable to Sharon. She was counting on us to do our part, which meant every one of us had to bring at least 1 person. This was hammered home in every class; we must make our aims no matter what our obstacles were.
Making aims was imperative, even if it meant staying up all night. At this point the interviewing hadn’t started, but Minerva came to Boston a few times to meet everyone’s top candidates and present the invitation to school herself. To have Minerva meet your “friend” was billed as a very special event, to see her in action and learn her techniques was seen as a real privilege. (Now I say to myself, OMG, how easily we were manipulated and coerced- they knew how to play the prestige card well)Even with all this pressure, our group did not make its recruiting aims, and several existing students left. We had been told, “Do not walk through these doors without making your aims” and they took their teachers seriously, they never came back.
continued
Recruiting history continued
During this span of time which was probably one to two years, the five meeting process was implemented and we started to have to fill out Bio forms on students. The five meeting idea came from Sharon, and I think most of it found it helpful. At least we knew what to talk about with our so called “friends” to lead the conversation to a place where an invitation to school could be extended. If I remember correctly, the one month experiment idea was introduced around this time. When I came to school, we were expected to pay our tuition on the first night of class. Eventually we couldn’t find anyone who was willing to do this, so the teachers decided to have new students come for free for the first 8 classes to try out school.
The Bio forms were presented as a way to help protect School. The time frame for this was the late 80’s. Something must have happened, because all of a sudden we couldn’t invite anyone who had lived in CA for any length of time. We couldn’t invite people who were reporters or lawyer or had family members who were policemen. We had to find out details about what our “friends” parents did for work, how may siblings they had, what the siblings did for work, etc, etc, etc. I believe it was in this time frame that there was more of an emphasis on school rules, covering books, etc. Alex was kicked out of school during this time. There was obviously a lot going on behind the scenes that we knew nothing about. I personally felt uneasy about these events, but dismissed my concerns, choosing instead to accept the group a being a bit eccentric and weird, but on the whole a good thing to be a part of.
In the early 90’s, the teachers started requiring a minimum income level for new students. There were too many students who came to classes and loved them, but weren’t making enough money to pay the tuition month after month after month. They would eventually have to drop out for financial reasons, and this had a detrimental effect on morale overall.
I think it was in the mid 90’s that Robert started interviewing new students before they started. I’m sure the primary reason was security; he wants to screen out someone who might be suspicious of the group for instance, and go to class and ask difficult and pointed questions. He asks about their motives for joining, they want people who are looking for meaning in their lives - perhaps because they know how to use and manipulate seekers of the Truth. He wants new students that are bright and lively, not boring duds that only fill seats. The interview sets up Robert as an authority figure, someone who must be impressed if you want to be invited to this secretive and exclusive group. The rules are presented, and Robert wants to be sure you will be willing to comply with them. The interview sets the stage for the whole induction process. It’s really quite clever and diabolical.
River of Joy,
Thank you for the detailed history of group recruiting efforts. I joined in the late 80s, and stayed a long time. Still, you've taught me a number of things I didn't know:
I did not know until now that the date of Alex's "deposing" was the late 1980s. (I thought it was the early 80s.) I did not know that Minerva Taylor led recruitment efforts in Boston as well as New York.
In Margaret Thaler Singer's excellent book "Cults in Our Midst," one of the later chapters states directly that an identifying trait of any cult is its pre-occupation with two activities: raising money and recruiting new members. In the Gans group, I thought it was just sloppiness that only "new student work" merited the Gurdjieff/Oespensky term "third line of work." But it quite accurately reflected the real priorities of the group. It is not too much to transpose the pressured selling of theatre tickets in San Francisco to the pressuring bringing of new students in Boston or New York.
As for Minerva Taylor, what a tragic exploitation of a human being. How much money has she alone earned for Alex Horn and Sharon Gans, through both the efforts you described and through the "tithing" that goes on at Taylor Hodson?
Since leaving, I've learned from other departees about many amateurish and slapdash operating practices of "school," in its ostensible missions of teaching and healing. Not so the recruiting side, which was and presumably remains as sophisticated a selection effort as I've ever witnessed. The people who made it through the door, as "new students," were mostly an exceptionally fine group of people.
Thank you, again.
River of Joy -
Thank you for the info on the evolution of the recruiting practices. I joined in 1991 and didn't start participating in recruiting until about 10 years later. At that point, the 5 meeting process, the bio forms, the income requirement and the various automatic disqualifiers were all in place. One note: I was recruited in the fall of 1991 and I was interviewed by Robert, so that was in place by that time.
Samwise Gamgee
My School Story-Part 34-By Cayce
River Of Joy,
Thank you so much for helping to better educate me on the "goings on" of this group throughout the yrs. You articulate these matters exceedingly well. Also Ajax & Samwise.
I did not, however, feel "slighted" by not having been interviewed/approved prior to admittance. Quite the contrary.
Unlike Roseann, I did not consider myself "very, very lucky" to have been "found by a School." I actually considered the School to be the lucky party. I distinctly remember thinking, repeatedly, "what a feather I'd be in their cap."
And before you write me off as a "braggart", I fully admit I am composed of many "I's", many of them feeling grossly inferior in many areas. But I got the impression that I was way above the curve in the areas that School was interested in. Perhaps it was "vanity", itself, that allowed this fish to be hooked in the first place.
But I wanted to discuss a handwritten book of poetry I stumbled upon by Maurice Nicoll on Ebay and decided to buy for Michael Savage. Even tho I had no idea what was in it, the 1st poem fit him perfectly. He collected rare plants/medicinal herbs on South Sea Islands still housed in museums in England that he can't even legally visit. And, of course, wrote numerous books in the Natural Health field loooong before becoming a radio talk show host. The first of the nine poems was:
THE PRIVACY OF CHILDHOOD
Now I am on the road alone
Without companion save my soul
Ah, blessed intake of Nature!
I can idle at a fence or wander
Down a little stream or sit
On what I like.
No pretence (sic) is necessary.
I do not have to be like
Anything save myself.
And all at once there come
The old feelings of freedom
That I have forgotten,
Of the old, tranquil, long,
Unhurried life,
The feelings of boyhood
Before I committed the sin
Of naming everything
And thinking I knew,
Yes, before I ate
Of the tree of knowledge
And pretended I knew,
Before I became a botanist
And a lover of the country,
Or wrote things down in books;
When I saw things as they are
And stared at birds
And grass and trees
And felt the turf and heard
Everything speaking,
And came home with wonder,
Drenched with air and pleasure
That I would never share
With anyone.
Because it was my own delight,
My very life, and not pretence. (sic)
And people said "What did you do
This afternoon, dear,
And where were you?"
Ah, where was I, I thought
And I sat up and said something,
Something quite untrue-a lie:
"I went to Parsons Farm
And then turned up the lane
Leading to Deep End",
And sat in silence
Thinking of my lie.
"That's good," they said,
"It will keep you fit."
Fit for what, I wondered.
Sorry, that was given June, 2007.
To River of Joy - I want to add my voice to the chorus of thank yous! You outlined the recruitment process and it's "evolution" so clearly. Here I naively thought that the five meetings and interview must have been rooted in the esoteric schools of old. In shedding light on its roots -- Sharon/Robert -- and the driving force -- $$ -- you help me to affirm my decision to leave.
Responses to recent posts:
Samwise Gamgee -– Thank you for the correction regarding when the interview process started. I’m trusting my memory of events from 20 years ago, and naturally it’s not perfect. Looking back, it’s safe to generalize and say the recruiting process was revamped and formalized in the late 80’s to early 90’s. The primary reasons for this was the glaring lack of recruiting results, and most likely external threats to the security of the group.
Ajax - I appreciate your comments about Minerva and how much money she has brought in for Sharon. It seems to me that the survival of school has been dependent on the effort of a few key players: Robert, Fred, and Minerva for sure, and probably a few other strong recruiters in the NYC groups.
In Boston the strongest recruiters have been Marjorie L, Kathleen, Josh and Lisa. I would say those four people brought the majority of people in school directly or indirectly, and without their efforts most likely school would have slowly faded away.
I wonder sometimes about the roles that people play unknowingly. If life is really one big drama, and we are merely players strutting around the stage, why did certain people get cast in these roles? How is it that a few key players start out as naïve recruits like the rest of us, and unwittingly end up supporting sociopaths like Sharon and Alex? No doubt these key players are being used and exploited. (Remember the rhetoric in class about being used by a higher level is a very good thing? Such a clever distortion of Mr. G’s explanation of the food diagram) Just another example of how the group stole real ideas and subtly twisted them for their own purposes. There are very clever manipulators, and know how to exploit our sincere desires to do good and live meaningful lives.
Regarding your comment about the sophistication of the recruiting process- when I started in the mid 80’s, I was in a small group of 15 new students. We didn’t recruit at all for our first year. When the decision was made to put us to work, we first read about three lines of work in In Search of the Miraculous and had a few discussions on it. There was also a lot of talk about valuation for the work. Looking back, we were clearly being set up. We were told we had progressed enough that we were now ready to be given the privilege and opportunity to participate in a third line of work, which would hasten our development into number 4 men and women. We were told there were two ways we could help school, either by giving it money or bringing new students. We had to think about how we could best contribute and come in the next class with our decision. Since most of us were in our 20’s and just starting out professionally, the only choice was recruiting. I remember that sinking feeling even now, I did not want to do this, and I never was very good at recruiting except for one brief period. What stands out the most is how totally clear and emphatic Robert was about the aims of school: new students and money. There it was, as plain as day, what this pseudo school was all about.
However, as new students we couldn’t see the blatant exploitation that was about to take place. We wanted to hasten our evolution; we wanted to be useful to a higher level. (how many aims did I state over the years that included the phrase ”I want to be useful to a higher level?”)
Cayce – I loved the poem you shared – I so cherish those few moments I have of “the old feelings of freedom” Dr. Nicoll talks about, and reading the poem brings back those memories. Thank you, thank you.
To the most recent Anonymous poster-
It’s uncanny to read your statement about affirming your decision to leave. I had two conversations yesterday on the same topic with friends in life who know my story. The group made us so dependent on them for guidance and approval, to part was with them requires an enormous leap of faith into the unknown. We no longer have anyone telling us what to do at every turn, and our days and nights are no longer filled with school activities. We no longer feel superior because we are part of an elite and select group of men and women who are working on their evolution. We realize we’re regular people, just like everyone else. We go through periods of simultaneously feeling freedom and elation, and then feeling alone and in a void. It’s hard to accept that we were duped, but we find a way to wrap our hearts and brains around that fact. We feel betrayed and used. We start to see how cleverly we were manipulated. We find our true selves again, and find our own path in life. We start to truly grow up instead of letting Sharon and Robert play the roles of substitute Mommy and Daddy. We reclaim our true selves. It is such a remarkable and brave act to leave, to go against all the psychological programming we’ve been exposed to, and then to go through the psychological aftermath of our experiences, the shock and the horror, how could I have ever been a part of such a group? We ask. The reward is that calm, still sense of realizing “I am” of being truly yourself.
I hope everyone affirms their decision to leave. I am so grateful and happy to have escaped, and to see and converse with so many us on the outside. I am crying as I write this, my gratitude is so profound. I am so very grateful to all beings who helped me along the way, visibly and invisibly. I feel totally supported by the universe in my decision, and I am so grateful.
My wish is that all students find their way out. That’s why I love the blessing I learned in a yoga class many years ago ‘may the true light within us guide our way home’
To River of Joy:
Anonymous, here: once again, I find your words so affirming. And, speaking of uncanny, each of your points hit squarely on a number of realizations that have been pounding down on me since I left:
1)The group made us so dependent on them for guidance and approval, to part with them requires an enormous leap of faith into the unknown.
Yes. I realized shortly after I left that I'd been asking permission for everything. But the worst part of that was I believed it was normal to do so. I have to laugh about it now, but I have moments during which I'm horrified by how easily I abdicated my responsibility and choices -- like the learned professor in Hans Christian Anderson's "The Shadow" who gave his life over so passively, so easily.
2) We no longer have anyone telling us what to do at every turn, and our days and nights are no longer filled with school activities.
To this point, I didn't even realize how school was devouring my life until I had been out for a couple of weeks. I looked back and thought "Holy shit, no wonder I started feeling as though my life was no longer mine. It wasn't."
Part 2, Response to River of Joy:
3) We no longer feel superior because we are part of an elite and select group of men and women who are working on their evolution. We realize we’re regular people, just like everyone else. We go through periods of simultaneously feeling freedom and elation, and then feeling alone and in a void.
Wow. Yes. It didn't take me long to stumble across this point after leaving school -- speaking of playing on one's vanity! But I am sooooo grateful to be one of the "others". I'll take "sleeping humanity", thank you, to living in a state of deception, believing that I'm evolving because I'm following some misguided "instruction".
I do also know the isolation. It's almost impossible to describe it to those who have not had this bizarre experience -- which probably explains why I'm so compulsive about checking this blog.
3) It’s hard to accept that we were duped, but we find a way to wrap our hearts and brains around that fact. We feel betrayed and used. We start to see how cleverly we were manipulated.
It is hard to accept it and it is so freeing to do so. I have to say, while in school something in me stayed awake and questioned, but I never would have suspected the depth of the deception and the lengths to which those in charge would go to keep that deception in place. It's a betrayal beyond words. AND it's good to know that my gut instinct stayed alive even as I disregarded it and let others dismiss it.
4)We find our true selves again, and find our own path in life. We start to truly grow up instead of letting Sharon and Robert play the roles of substitute Mommy and Daddy. We reclaim our true selves. It is such a remarkable and brave act to leave, to go against all the psychological programming we’ve been exposed to, and then to go through the psychological aftermath of our experiences, the shock and the horror, how could I have ever been a part of such a group? We ask. The reward is that calm, still sense of realizing “I am” of being truly yourself.
Again, I am also experiencing this for myself. It began the moment that I realized I was staying in school out of fear - the fear that somehow without it my life would fall apart. I had to say to myself, I can't live out of fear; if my life is to fall apart, so be it, at least that disaster will be a result of me practicing my own free will. I have to say, so far, my life has only improved.
I spent this weekend outdoors with my husband: working on the yard and garden, hiking in a nearby reservation. Had I been in school, I've no doubt I'd be working on a Christmas party instead. I have never felt such gratitude for the simple things - I have a home, a garden, a husband and my time is mine to do with as I wish. And, finally, I am taking in that I was looking for something in school that I can only find by looking within -- no one can tell me, or you, or anyone else reading this blog what is right. The answers live inside.
River of Joy, again, I thank you for your wise and compassionate words!
MUST READ!!!!
Especially you, Diogenes, since you seem to really have a concern over matters such as these regarding children.
It is the Grand Jury transcripts regarding Coach Sandusky of PA from recent days. IT IS GRAPHIC!
I have asked Ashiata to try to put us in touch.
http://www.wltx.com/news/pdf/Sandusky-Grand-Jury-Presentment.pdf
Wish this site was set up to just "click on" links, but you can still "CUT & Paste" to your Browser.
This is more of the same TRUE BIOGRAPHICAL shit I dealt with in my song, "Game I Can't Win" where the Father used all 4 daughters as sex toys. I wouldn't be the least surprised if he had "fun" with his male children, too.
God Help Us All
Sorry, should be "Copy" & "Paste", or you can find it on www.michaelsavage.wnd.com
under Sandusky Grand Jury story.
To anyone interested in the Sandusky affair, I recommend the reports by Jon Rappaport. I am including some of his latest, which raise important questions:
ACCUSED PEDOPHILE'S CHILD CHARITY
NOVEMBER 12, 2011. BREAKING...The Penn State committee just formed to investigate the current pedophile scandal at the University will be head up by college trustee, KEN FRAZIER.
KEN FRAZIER IS THE PRESIDENT AND CEO OF MERCK PHARMACEUTICALS.
I realize that many readers won't see the significance of this connection. And in this piece, I certainly don't have the space to lay out the case against Merck and their vaccines. But in my opinion, this is exchanging one form of child abuse for another.
(I think what he's referring to is using kids in drug trials. This has happened in the past, and it does happen in third world countries. It is the topic of the film The Constant Gardener-- an excellent film, if you haven't seen it already.)
And incidentally, how many of the 100,000 kids Second Mile has dealt with, in the state of Pennsylvania, have been promoted heavily to get vaccinated? How many adverse reactions have occurred?
Former Penn State football coach, Jerry Sandusky, started The Second Mile, a charity for at-risk children, in 1977. Sandusky is now accused of 40 criminal counts related to child sexual abuse. A witness states he saw Sandusky raping a young boy in the Penn State locker room, in 2002.
con't
Rappaport cont'd
The Second Mile, on its site, claims it has helped 100,000 children in Pennsylvania. So far, Sandusky is the only accused pedophile.
To understand the reach of Second Mile and its prestige and influence in the state of Pennsylvania, and therefore to see how the current investigation could be narrowed or blocked, it's instructive to note its supporters. Most of these names have now been removed from the charity's site, but before that happened they were saved by at least several people. A poster at HawkeyeNation.com has put up many names. I found a few myself on Second Mile pages.
For example, Second Mile holds what it calls Challenge Residential Weeks. They are mini-camps for kids. They're sponsored by Bank of America, The Hershey Corporation, Walmart, and Warnaco, whose leading brand is Calvin Klein.
Other companies show up peripherally, not directly, through individuals who work for them or did work for them and support or work for Second Mile:
Note the prestige of these groups/individuals. This person had a lot of connections:
JPMorganChase
PriceWaterhouse
Heritage Hills Golf Resort
Philadelphia Phillies
Quaker State
Highmark Blue Shield
Susquehanna Bank
Then there are people who have held honorary status at Second Mile:
Former Notre Dame football coach, Lou Holtz
Philadelphia Eagles coach, And Reid
Golf legend Arnold Palmer
Actor Mark Wahlberg
Matt Millen, former NFL player and current ESPN analyst (Millen was an unpaid "director" of an honorary board who possibly had duties at Second Mile)
Fired Penn State football coach, Joe Paterno
Baseball legend Cal Ripken
Franco Harris, former Pittsburgh Steelers star
Jack Ham, former Steelers star
John Cappelletti, former NFL player
Dick Vermeil, former NFL coach
I found four people who are Penn State employees:
Professor Ralph Licastro
Professor Bob Ricketts
Susan Rao, who works in a science laboratory
Jeff Smith
I'm in no way suggesting that any of these people are involved in the current Sandusky investigation or anything else untoward.
But it helps to understand the landscape. The very presence of these important names could result in someone, somewhere deciding it's better to keep the Sandusky investigation on its single rail, and minimize efforts to find out what else, if anything, has been going on at Second Mile, or at Penn State.
Rappaport cont'd
Consider the furor that has been aroused by what has happened so far. The prospect, for law enforcement, for Penn State, for Second Mile, for who knows who else, that another or other pedophiles may exist is daunting, to say to the least. The repercussions could turn the tremors of an earthquake into a volcano.
In the years leading up to the arrest of accused child molester, Jerry Sandusky, there were not only clues, there were reports. The most stark report came from then-graduate assistant, Mike McQueary, who stated he saw Sandusky raping a young boy in the showers of the Penn State locker room, in 2002.
McQueary told his father, told Joe Paterno, the football coach, who then passed some version of what he was told to his boss-and so on and so forth, all the way up to the president of Penn State.
Where, apparently, nothing was done. The police certainly didn't take action.
Why was nothing done? You can read the Grand Jury's report here.
And then for nine years, Sandusky was free to come to Penn State and use the facilities, although he had already been retired from coaching (1999). He was sometimes in the company of children.
No one did anything.
McQueary rose to the position of assistant coach on the football team. He saw Sandusky, between 2002 and 2011, many times on campus. So did head coach Paterno. It is assumed that Paterno's bosses also knew Sandusky had access to sports facilities at the college.
How to explain all this?
A psychological state of denial? Some sort of frozen indifference? Fear of spoiling the reputation of the college?
Although one or more of those reasons might be relevant, perhaps they're too easy. Perhaps there is more to this than meets the eye.
Suppose these men were aware that the pedophile activity was far-reaching and involved other men? Suppose that was the real secret. And still is.
Yes, this is speculation. Certainly. But so is every other attempt to explain the apparent unconcern about Sandusky, who was on campus mere days before his arrest last week.
Suppose the prospect of, say, going to the police or the press about Sandusky meant the possibility of pulling back the curtain on other pedophiles, other boys, other connections-something so extensive it could never be lived down. Suppose, for example, other pedophiles were (and are) heavy hitters with more power and money and influence than a mere assistant football coach (Sandusky).
A similar paralysis infected Second Mile. Its attorney, Wendell Courtney, saw a 1998 police report indicating that Sandusky had showered with two boys. Although no charges were filed against Sandusky at the time, Second Mile could have removed him from all activities involving children. That is exactly what the charity did in 2008, when Sandusky informed the board that he was being investigated about yet another incident with a boy.
Rappaport Cont'd
In 1998, the local police worked a sting on Sandusky. They listened to him him talking on the phone to the mother of one of the boys Sandusky showered with. During the call, Sandusky admitted what he did-but for reasons still not understood, the prosecuting attorney, Gricar, and Child Protective Services dropped the investigation. Why? (Gricar disappeared in 2005 and has never been seen again. He has been declared dead.)
To this point, we have heard nothing about photos or videos Sandusky may have possessed. Certainly, the police have searched his home and office. What did they find?
So far, when the press comments on the intransigence of Penn State and Second Mile officials, the statements are expressions of shock and moral outrage and puzzlement. It's time to move past that and consider that there may be real explanations here.
Second Mile may be forced to close its doors. Moody's has indicated that the bond rating of Penn State could suffer from this scandal. All because of the activity of one accused pedophile. Imagine what would happen, in this regard, if there are other pedophiles who are part of Sandusky's operation.
More reasons to try to limit the investigation to Sandusky.
Jon Rappoport
www.nomorefakenews.com
Cayce, can you make Michael Savage aware of these issues?
Final comment re: Sandusky
I apologize for posting these here because they are not specifically related to School, but they point to the same kind of issues: corruption and abuse hidden and protected. If there is a subset of people interested in these issues please post emails and I will email separately Thank you.
The Penn State/Second Mile scandal is not the first pedophile ring to be busted. Years ago, there was the Franklin Coverup:
Based on DeCamp's riveting book, The Franklin Cover-up, Conspiracy of Silence begins with the shut-down of Nebraska's Franklin Community Federal Credit Union after a raid by federal agencies in 1988 revealed that $40 million was missing. When the Nebraska legislature launched a probe into the affair, what initially looked like a financial swindle soon exploded into a startling tale of drugs, money laundering, and a nationwide child sex abuse ring. Nineteen months later, the legislative committee's chief investigator died suddenly and violently. A dozen others linked to the Franklin case investigation died strange and mysterious deaths.
So why have you never heard of the Franklin cover-up? Originally scheduled to air in May of 1994 on the Discovery Channel, Conspiracy of Silence was yanked at the last minute due to formidable pressure applied by top politicians.
Note that, like the Sandusky incident, an investigator ended up dead. You can watch the documentary here:
http://www.wanttoknow.info/060501conspiracyofsilence
Chris, YOU DA MAN!!!
I made Savage aware of this blog a few days ago and am sure he has been reading it.
I congratulated him on his new first novel, "Abuse Of Power" and suggested I thought he would do quite well by imitating Gurdjieff's model of passing along important information in a fiction format, as G. did in "Beelzebub's Tales To His Grandson."
Thanks, Chris, so much for taking the time and effort to compile and share your info. Hope others will take the trouble to read Sandusky's Grand Jury record:
http://www.wltx.com/news/pdf/Sandusky-Grand-Jury-Presentment.pdf
Chris,
It was also incredibly astute of you to focus on vaccinations, often LEGALLY FORCED upon children. I'd highly recommend reading "A Shot In The Dark" by Harris Coulter and the mother of a vaccine victim (sorry, I can't remember her name, but I think Coulter's middle initial might be "L."). He wrote a three volume history of medicine, the 3rd dealing specifically with Homeopathy. I tried to Hi-Lite everything in it that seemed noteworthy, but eventually gave up when, after 200 pages, at least one paragraph on each page was Hi-Lited!
His wife, Catherine, writes some of the finest descriptions of these meds ever to grace the pages of a book, regardless of century written. I had Roseann read her 1st volume and she said she thought she was "Calcarea Carbonica". This seemed quite apt, as she had the hard calcium shell of Mastery showing to the world, but was like a vulnerable/fragile little girl on the inside, just like the "innards" of a clam.
One case focused on an apparently normal family in "A Shot In The Dark", But with each DPT (Diphtheria/Pertussis/Tetanus) shot the child exhibited howling screams such as were never heard prior. The normal child then became mentally enfeebled and physically changed, ie., feet turned excessively inward or outward.
This happened to the 2nd "normal" child, and then the 3rd.
Even tho this family was not highly educated, they subsequently refused to allow the next 2 or 3 kids to be vaccinated.
The state stepped in and took the remaining still normal kids and vaccinated them. They, too, became enfeebled after this, and were then returned to the family.
I believe vaccination to be a "bastardized" form of Homeopathy. While it may be relatively safe for the majority of beings, for some it is poisonous.
If you like, you can compare this to food allergies (tho I insist it is much more serious) where peanuts are safe for most folks, but deadly to others, often causing death by suffocation by virtue of throat swelling, Anaphylazis (sp?) or whatever the proper term is!
Myself, I played the role of the sly man, and LIED and said my daughter had such screams after her initial shot, and was thereby enabled to LEGALLY only have her get DT shots afterwards. I knew from my studies that the Pertussis aspect was the offending cause in these cases.
Have I mentioned that I never even graduated from high school? There is no excuse for ignorance. One can learn anything, especially with the advent of the internet. I used to argue with my buddy, Billy, about college classes that he attended PURELY for the sake of credits. He didn't want KNOWLEDGE, he wanted a piece of paper. I tried to point out that he could ask permission and "sit in" on the classes for free if he felt he couldn't learn thru self study.
I loved Billy, but Billy is long dead of Pancreatic cancer from 3 packs of cigarettes and gallons of coffee per day. Thank you for teaching me music, Billy.
My School Story-Part 35-By Cayce
If yer gonna attend School ya gotta follow the already mentioned rules:
Ya can't masturbate, ya can't use drugs, ya can't be unemployed, ya can't tell anybody about it, BUT...
Ya can DRINK! Yeah, alcohol is OK!
Some students have already mentioned how they'd be given a verbal tongue lashing if they didn't bring Sharon her DRINK with exactly four ice cubes in it. One more, or one less, and they'd experience her wrath.
As previously stated, I always sat directly in front of the Teachers. I noticed on one night that a guy in front of me was drinking a beer in a paper bag. I got the impression that it was only in a paper bag so it would be legal on the street as he was walking to School, not to hide it from the Teachers. If anything, being bagged would have made it more obvious if it was something to be hidden from the Teachers (Fred & Minerva).
Why was alcohol alright? Well, it had to be since Gurdjieff set the example. We discover in his writings that he found that by using it (vodka, I think) he could continue working and remaining conscious for MUCH LONGER PERIODS of time. Although, in all fairness, "remaining conscious" simply means "staying awake" in a purely normal human sense at this period. But he carried this practice on for the rest of his life, even after he supposedly had developed "higher consciousness."
Alcohol is, technically, classified as a "depressant." We in the real world know this is a gross oversimplification. It is, eventually, a depressant, but it initially acts as a stimulant, making us all the more active, vocal, enthusiastic, etc. We've certainly all read about events where it has been described as "liquid courage", if not actually experiencing this at some point.
I don't know about you, but I'll freely admit I took Gurdjieff's writings/actions as carte blanche (unrestricted permission) to drink as much as I wanted to, tho I kept it to beer.
I've always been a Night Owl, preferring to work on night shifts when I could. And I never slept much. Even when working a true day shift I'd get up at 6 AM and be up til at least 1 AM, and often much later.
But this encouragement of alcohol in a School setting makes a lot of sense as I read about the students being bullied into "producing successful results" or suffering public degradation at the hands of the Teachers. They'd have to devote an unbelievable amount of hours to their assigned tasks to have any hope of success.
I am constantly amazed as I think back on the actual amount of time Roseann spent trying to recruit me. So many hours at each Indian restaurant, Sushi place, multiple meetings at the Cloisters place a bit further uptown, my taking her to music clubs in The Village. And this doesn't even begin to count phone calls at my job or home. I can't believe how hard/long she worked.
In the end I agreed to check out School simply because it was so evident how hard she was working.
Over a decade earlier I'd seen a young woman trying pathetically to sell chocolate bars to raise money for Rev. Sun Young Moon at a Jersey City mall. I came to her rescue and said, "let me show ya how ta do this" and sold out her box in about ten minutes. I always had a soft spot in my heart for Asian women. And I have to correct my previous post accusing "Moonies" of "flirty fishing", that was another group.
But I only did this to "convert" her. I thought I had "The Answer" with my enthusiasm for Primal Therapy. I went up to meet her group near "Bear Mountain/West Point" in upstate NY. In all fairness, she never engaged in any subterfuge. She was up front about her intent, as was I about mine. So funny when ya look back on it...everybody tryna convert everybody!
TBC
My School Story-Part 36-By Cayce
But her name was Tam-Me-Aye (phonetically) Asakura. I promised her I'd read her book, and I did (basically, Jesus was the second Adam) and she promised she's read mine...who knows?
Anybody that has read any of the G. student books (bios) has got to be aware of the INTENSE amount of drinking that went on there. They even knocked down a fuckin' basement wall, only to discover a hidden cache of wine/liquor under the Prieure (which I'm sure is misspelled) and G. used this to toast the "Idiots" daily!
Of course Ouspensky, too, sank into increasing depths of alcohol induced solace as the years went by and he felt let down by HIS Teacher. Ouspensky was, however, the only one to try to make some SENSE out of these fragments that Gurdjieff had revealed to him. He did an admirable job given such an ambiguous education.
Just as NO TEACHER IN THE NY OR BOSTON SCHOOLS HAS BEEN ABLE TO MAKE ONE SINGLE MARRIAGE LAST, Gurdjieff, himself, couldn't finish his last book/AIM. Do you remember how it ends?
I'll give ya a hint: "..." (might even have been in mid-sentence).
Or, prior to that, do ya remember the book he (G) wrote that he later begged us to forget, "Herald The Coming Good" replete with forms on the last few pages to sign up for his School?
That's Enuff
It happens because institutions lie.
This is good:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7233704/the-brutal-truth-penn-state
What got me out of school is I knew the lying was wrong. If you are spiritually adept, you don't need to lie.
This is helpful. I hope all involved at Penn State and Second Mile are subjected to this kind of scrutiny:
http://liespotting.com/2011/06/liespotting-lance-armstrong-part-2-expert-analysis/
My School Story-Part 37-By Cayce
Immediately prior to my 1st class Roseann prepped me, urging that I try to take in every impression, warning that there'd only be 1 1st time. Almost like one's 1st kiss or 1st time making love.
I really didn't sense anything special, tho. But I was impressed within a week or so, to the point that I was thinking "If I ever start a school it'll be almost exactly like this!" I was, of course, thinking more along the lines of teaching Homeopathy, with tuition being more in the $25-$50/mo range.
Not to give this School any ideas, I still can't believe they don't model tuition on more of a pyramid scheme pattern. I'd have thought they'd be a lot more successful if Students got 10% of the tuition for each person they brought in. Everyone would strive to have 10 inductees so they, themselves, could attend tuition free. Just seems like common sense to me.
Guess we should be glad they're so greedy.
I remember telling R. at our 1st restaurant meeting about having dreams, where I woke up, only to discover I only dreamt I woke up, but was really still asleep and, literally, trapped in the dream. These became more frequent over the yrs. A dead giveaway that I was dreaming was turning a light switch on, but the lite didn't come on. So I'd try another, still without success. By the 3rd I'd realize this was too much for coincidence and realize I was dreaming, but now conscious of the fact that I was in a dream state.
I was pleasantly surprised when I finally read the rest of "In Search Of" over a yr after leaving School only to find O. had written about this exact matter.
There is a fascinating DVD on this subject called "Waking Life" that's halfway between animation and real life filming. They too point out it is, for some reason, impossible to turn a light on in a dream. Well worth seeing.
Aside from the previously mentioned Fred/Class argument over smoking I never witnessed anything bad. One time a woman stood up about concerns she had regarding sounds she heard from a neighbor's apartment. Minerva adamantly told her that if she had the SLIGHTEST suspicion that a child was being hurt she had a RESPONSIBILITY to call the police, and put aside any CONSIDERATION/fears of pissing off the parents. No idea if this was prior to knowledge of possible abuses, or if it was but a show for the newbies like me.
My School Story-Part 38-By Cayce
BTW, if I'm boring the shit out of you guys, feel free to speak up. I wasn't kidding when I said I could write a whole book about this stuff.
One particularly interesting incident during my recruitment period was after leaving The Cloisters bar/restaurant and taking Roseann home. Might even have been the aforementioned heroin discussion. I had Billy's car, which was a manual transmission/stick shift. (He later sold me his wife's car for $300 and I drove it for 8 or 9 yrs!) Roseanne noted on the way home that she knew how to drive a stick. While I usually took the Holland Tunnel home, this time I wound up using the Lincoln Tunnel. As I was driving thru Hoboken I suddenly had the sensation that driving was absolutely effortless, like I, and the car, were on "automatic pilot." I felt 1000% sure I could close my eyes and still successfully arrive safely home. I felt like Roseann was the one that was actually driving the car!
Did I close my eyes? Did I safely drive home blind?
DO YA THINK I'M A COMPLETE FUCKIN' IDIOT? Of course I didn't give in to that temptation. I didn't want to die. And it wasn't even my car. But I'm just telling you what my purely subjective sensation/impression was at that particular moment.
I also remember the only School class I missed. I already had tickets for a Pick Floyd concert before entering School and opted for that experience on that particular Tuesday evening. Near as I can figure this must have been 5/17/88 at Veterans Stadium in Philly. Roseanne told me that she was "listening for me" when she called me at work Wednesday to find out why I wasn't there. I thought she meant she kept listening to hear the elevator doors open hoping I'd show up late. But, in retrospect, I think she was trying to say that she was paying special attention to that night's class so she could mentally record it all and pass it on to me after the fact.
Sorry, R., I never got it.
Although I gotta admit I am, as of late, spending so much time posting here that I've begun to do it even in my dreams. Sometimes I'll think of something worthy of writing about but then dismiss it in favor of something else, and then find myself posting the original idea in a dream state.
Ah, but such is life. I'll leave you with Nicoll's 2nd untitled poem which, looking at it now, is quite apt. And I assure you I didn't plan this:
My mind was feeding
On the lower slopes
(Who shall ascend
The mountain of God?
I am but a beast in thy sight.)
When, in the coming dawn,
A blackbird clattered
Shaking the scene within
As with a sudden gale
And consciousness divided.
And I awoke sleeping
Whereas sleeping I had
Been awake.
(Laid out as written)
Well I thought it would print as laid out. Every 2nd line is indented an inch, and the final line is indented 2 inches.
Cayce,
Probably nothing in all your posts has touched me as much as your realization of what Roseann went through to bring you to "school." I feel as though I've watched a man come full circle in his awareness, in real time.
You took us from your initial posts about impressions of Roseann, through posts incorporating what you'd come to learn from others about "school" circumstances and methods, to a heartfelt, forgiving coming-to-terms with another very human person whose life happened to touch yours.
Well, I left a 3rd or 4th msg for Don Raskopf tonite & he finally called me back. He got right to the point. He didn't want to talk to me because I'm "Homophobic & a Racist!"
So I proceeded to tell him that the people at the job I had when I was recruited, and had for 15 yrs, were 66% Puerto Rican, 33% Black....and little White me. I was their Shop Steward, ELECTED BY MY FELLOW EMPLOYEES, not appointed by the Union. I still held that position when I decided to move to Indiana in '97.
Like a typical Liberal living in a Politically Correct world he hung up when his name calling was successfully being proved false.
Let's take this 1 step at a time and see if we can deal with it honestly. Am I Racist, do I hate Blacks as Don said? (Here's where the True Haters get the chance to quote me out of context!)
Absolutely! I went to a High School that was 99% Black and 1% of them made my life miserable for almost 4 yrs. I hate them to the core of my being. But 98% were simply people who liked me, very much liked me, or felt totally indifferent toward me. I simply mirrored everyone's feelings and returned them in like fashion. So, if ya wanna get a bit more precise, I do, in fact, hate some Blacks.
Forgive me for not being a fuckin' Saint and loving my enemies.
Now Don's evidence was my own posts where he said I mocked their language. I'll assume he meant 11/01/11 7:33 PM. I guess I was suppose to use Google to find an OFFICIAL Ebonics/English Translator. Give me a Fuckin' break. And notice that EVERY SINGLE TIME I use that form of the "F word" I never once put a "G" on the end. I've never heard it once in REAL LIFE with a "G" sound on the end. Only in movies. Even Black comics, when they imitate Whites in their routine purposely stress the "G" sound on the end to emphasize it is a non-streetwise White saying it.
These posts are all 1st draft. I'm not gonna kill myself trying to get every little thing correct.
But I was referring to all my Black friends and their general style of speech. When I was at the Speakeasy to perform live on stage for my 1st 5 wk AIM, I shunned Mark, my sustainer. Instead I was with Curtis, Derrick, & Richie, my THREE BLACK FRIENDS, and Jackie & Tommy, my two token White friends.
You got a lotta nerve you little self righteous shit. I suggest you take my advice for Bach Flower Remedies and get yourself some "BEECH" for "Critical Intolerance."
I was tempted to respond like this to SF Student's similar claim, but was so glad I didn't when he, or she, eventually turned out to be quite knowledgeable and actually contributed valuable info to this page.
And don't even go to the "7th century throwback" Islamists. The answer is the same. Each Muslim gets back what they give out from me.
I will take up Homophobia immediately after posting this, Don, so if you're gonna reply ya might as well wait.
OK, am I a Homophobe? No! Do I take issue with some Gays and the things they espouse? Definitely! But we'll get to some of these issues a bit later.
My School Story-Part 4 was composed mainly of Eleanor McEvoy lyrics. If Don did a little research he would have found the same review I did when I bought my 1st McEvoy CD, where she was described as "a leather clad Gay Icon". To date I have 6 of her CD's.
My wife & I saw Melissa Etheridge at the Palladium in NYC in the early 90's. If she wasn't out officially then, it was obvious by the crowd which was mainly Gay women. We've got 5 of her CD's.
For God sakes, I saw THE TOM ROBINSON BAND at the Capital Theater in Passaic, NJ when his hit single was "Sing If You're Glad To Be Gay."
And finally, as I read SF Student's initial questioning of me, while it wasn't playing at the time, the actual CD inside the CD player was Lou Reed's "New York" that I'd been enjoying a night or two before. While I hate most of the incredibly Liberal lyrics on it, it is once of the finest, most energized collection of songs in existence. And I often recommend his "Magic & Loss" CD to any that have recently lost a loved one.
I don't like hypocrisy like we find in the Muslim world where they hang their Gay youths to enforce Sharia Law while their soldiers are fuckin' each other up the ass on the battlefield as witnessed by my own nephew. And as practiced thru the centuries by their Holy men, but they will only engage in Gay sex with prepubescent boys...they are Gay child molesters!
I don't like Gays that support NAMBLA, the National Association for Man/Boy Love. They preach daily that it should be OK for them to have sex with 7 yr olds!
I could go on & on. The bottom line is if I meet someone that's Gay and is a decent human being, they're fine in my book.
The very fact that I accept reincarnation means I have to accept Gay love. Simple example: if you're a guy and you love a woman beyond belief, and you spend your entire lives enjoying a hot & heavy sexual experience together, if you both die and meet again in a future life, but you are both the same sex this time, how could those old feeling not affect you, even if only subconsciously?
Now I could easily give examples like Ellen Degeneres, who was molested by her Mom's boyfriend, and therefore probably made an internal decision like "no man is ever gonna hurt me again", but I see no point in those arguments. People make their own decisions. And ya really have to have a heart of stone not to like such a Sweetie Pie as Ellen.
I hope this is sufficient so I can remain on topic in the future.
I just sent this email to the moderator of this site-
“cayce” has posted about calling me. He left 3 increasingly disturbing messages on my voice mail before I responded to the 3rd last night. I told him not to contact me, that we had nothing in common. He asked if I meant because he was only in 75 days. I said because you are a racist: (quotes from cayce posts)
“Brothas will "arrange" to have a meet with Sharon and Fred and Minerva and all the otha Teachas they can find on these pages and make them an offa dey can't refuse. How hard could it be for a Brotha ta find dese homies iffin' dey really had a mind to?”
And a homophobe:
“Rumi, ... he was a pedophile. As I did research into this matter I learned that this Homosexuality goes on to this day in the "Spiritual" Arab world. But it pisses me off that these 7th century fuckin' throwbacks”
His messages to me and his account of virtually stalking Roseanne are very disturbing as are the off topic posts about Penn State by him and others on this thread.
end of email
What is the point of your ignorant personal attacks and assumptions?
You have NO IDEA who any of us are, what we have been through or where we are now. "Victim bashing" no shit. What is in it for you? Do not ever contact me again and if someone does not respond to you - LEAVE THEM THE FUCK ALONE
My School Story-Part 39-By Cayce
Another rule of School was you had to practice "Self Remembering" three times daily, and keep a diary of these experiences. This was a matter of making a conscious effort to be as aware as possible of everything going on; all perceptions, sensations, reactions, etc. in the mental, emotional & 5 sensual spheres. It basically forced you to be "awake" at least 3 to 15 mins. of every day in the hope that as time went on you'd spend more of your life in a truly conscious state, as opposed to "waking sleep" as was Man's normal state.
For the uninitiated, let's take the example of driving a car. How many times have you found yourself lost in some reverie as you were traveling. Maybe replaying some tense work situation over & over in your head, thinking of all the things you SHOULD have said. Suddenly you realize that you have been on a sort of "auto pilot" mode for the last 20 blocks. If you're honest, you may even wonder if you may have gone thru a Stop Sign or a red light while lost in fantasy.
To be honest, Self Remembering was not explained to me half as well as I just did in 2 paragraphs while I was a student. Had it been, I probably would have been more diligent in my efforts. As given to me, it was kinda hazy what it was, or what it was for. But it's such a basic part of the teaching that I guess the Teachers sometimes just glossed over it assuming it to be stuff everybody already knew.
Of course I could have asked the Teachers, but I preferred to be a spectator and take everything in. And it's not that I didn't want to draw attention to myself, like I said, I always sat directly in front of them. But the few times I did volunteer a question or comment I found myself very disappointed with their answers, and sometimes their complete lack of understanding of the concepts I was entertaining.
In the beginning we all had to get copies of "In Search Of..." & "The Psychology Of Man's Possible Evolution" by Ouspensky, easily found at East-West or Weiser's. Then we had to get Collin's "Theory Of Celestial Influence" which I couldn't find. Roseann recommended a bookstore in midtown. It seemed quite out of place in the middle of the block with all the buildings being at least 10 stories tall. While on line to pay, a guy in front was asking the cashier if they could get him a wolf's paw (I guess for a Wiccan/Witchcraft ceremony). He said they couldn't, but they could get him a German Sheppard paw if that would suffice!
TBC
AJAX,
Thank you for your most recent comments. What a fascinating way to view it, watching another's development in real time.
But we are all in a constant state of change. I vaguely recall a poster in Boston back in '74 that said something like "Change Is The Only Perceptible Sign Of Life (or maybe Growth)." Twelve hrs later I even feel a bit kinder toward Mr. Raskopf. At least he is firm enough in his convictions to refuse to work alongside someone he perceives as an evil person. Most folks nowadays are content to take the view "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." And I am still grateful to him for inspiring me to start posting in the first place.
As expressed earlier I started this blog as an angry response to legal threats. Then there were 2 phone calls that both rang once and then hung up. I suspected they were bait to get me to call back after I read the e-mail and got the lawyer's ph msg demanding that I cease all attempts at communication in order to get a court ordered injunction against me.
I'd like to believe R's long out of School, but she appears to be using so many aliases, and having multiple residences in FL, NY & L.A. that I'm beginning to suspect she might actually be a Teacher at this point in some new School. One could argue that anyone in the entertainment field has to take such precautions, lest they become the next John Lennon, but I wouldn't think a few reality TV episodes would allow such a lifestyle.
Anyway, any present short term pissed off-ness is way offset by 23 yrs of genuine love & thankfulness. What I told her in my e-mail remains true: I'm sure if I met her face to face tomorrow I'd start blubbering like a baby.
My School Story-Part 40-By Cayce
But to continue on to my disappointment with the Teachers' responses to me, we had to read a given book chapter. I honestly don't remember, but suppose it must have been in Rodney Collin's "Celestial Influence" book. There was some story of an ancient war. And the lead character had kept a piece of his Master's (Teacher) clothing. Or a lock of his hair, maybe he had one of his friggin' fingers. Whatever it was, he kept it in a special place in a Chalice or a locked box on some Altar. Apparently he felt he could communicate and/or summon his Master with this. Don't remember if the guy was still living, or not.
Or maybe we didn't read it. Maybe Fred did a rare reading out of "Beelzebub."
Anyway, Fred asked the class about this. There were various opinions offered by the students. None of them, in my estimation, hitting the mark, so I made a rare appearance as a "stand up" guy and proceeded to tell them about "Broadcasting/Radionics."
While I practice the Classical Homeopathy of Hahnemann & Kent, there are others that often incorporate additional aspects into this system for the purpose of diagnosing, prescribing, and then administering the meds from afar. They teach that if I have a sample of your blood, or a few strands of your hair in my possession here in Indiana, I can use that sample to diagnose your condition in NYC. Beyond that, if you get ill 5 yrs later I can still use my original sample from '88 to successfully prescribe for '93 complaint (still at a great distance). They claim that an invisible link will ALWAYS remain between you and your sample.
Some tell you via e-mail or phone call what med to get and take. Others use an electronic device to send the vibrations of the med directly to you.
We're not discussing here whether or not there is any validity to this belief. Simply making you aware of a commonly accepted spiritual belief held by many.
Fred & Minerva simply looked at each other like "What the fuck is he talking about?"
I couldn't believe my "highly evolved spiritual Teachers" were not aware of this common practice, even if they thought it to be a bunch of Bullshit.
And, apparently, Fred had started his Natural Healing career in '87, paid for by Sharon.
BTW, I don't think I ever had the pleasure of having Sharon teach one of my classes.
I am in my 40s now but was in "school" from the time I was 25/26ish to 31/32. I never told a soul. It was hard to leave--I thought I was betraying God or something--but I was so unhappy and extremely depressed. I remember bringing up in "class" the desire to try antidepressants but that was so frowned upon. I was told I just had to work harder on myself. The best best best thing I did was leave. There are people I always wondered about after I left (still wonder, now and then), although I don't remember missing anyone too terribly--I always knew they were only "friends" as long as I stayed. There were some interesting experiences, and I loved some of the ideas (which are not all native to this "school", but can be found in so many places). But so much was so wrong. I was involved in the "priviledge" of third line of work, and brought in one person. I hope he got out with most of his cash intact, and I hope he has forgiven me. I wonder how some people are... like Jonathan, and Dana, and Wit, and folks I was in Arbor Vitae with, and hope they are all well and happy and free.
When I was about 3 yrs old my Dad bought me a hamster. The store owner put it in a cigar box. I don't even know if most modern readers know what a cigar box is, so I'll explain. It's about 7" L, 5" W, & 2" H with a flip open top. At home we made a living space for the hamster in a rather large sewing box, maybe 20" x 12' x 10". We made a bedding of newspaper cut with "pinking shears" which were scissors that made continual "V" shaped cuts, as opposed to a straight line.
One time I was playing with it and put it back in the cigar box. Upon closing the lid and pushing it down tightly to make sure the hamster didn't escape, I realized, to my utter horror, that the little creature had stuck his head out just as I was closing it, and I had broken his neck and KILLED HIM!
You cannot begin to know my own little 3 yr old horror and shame at the realization of my terrible act. Even long before I ever heard the word "Sin."
I put the hamster back in the sewing box. When my parents found him dead they guessed he must have been poisoned by nibbling on the dried up formerly spilled nail polish on the bottom of the box.
I did not really get away with this "crime", though. I carried it like a weight on my young back every day hence!
I never dared to speak of this til I was maybe 15 yrs old. When I did tell an older friend, he laughed at the absurdity of me carrying so much guilt on my shoulders for sooooo loooong when it was just a stupid little accident that could have happened to any kid.
I know how silly this sounds to adults reading now, but it made ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD TO ME when I heard those words. Suddenly the great weight/shame was lifted off me and I was FOREVER free of it.
My real life example of "confession is good for the Soul." But it doesn't necessarily always work out like this.
The same "Papa Bear" that serially raped all 4 daughters, at one time "tapped" the phone lines of a church he'd recently joined to gain "intel" on callers to the Priest so he could control them.
School asked anyone having trouble not masturbating to let their "Sustainer" know, so he/she could help them. Hmmmmm, could this be a ploy to gain info for blackmail!? Some will laugh. "Big fuckin' deal, everybody does it!" But I have enough memory to remember earlier yrs when I might easily have knuckled under to such a threat.
School sometimes encouraged married students to have affairs with each other. If they did, would they then be under a similar blackmail threat by the possessors of this knowledge? You bet your fuckin' ass, Neil! And now we're not dealing with childish unwarranted shame. We're dealing with the possibility of DESTROYED MARRIAGES and DESTROYED FAMILIES!!!
Do they have ya firmly under their thumbs at this point? Once again, YOU BET YER FUCKIN' ASS, LAURA!
Don't know if any reading this are in such a position, but if ya are ya know ya gotta get out. You can run to your better half and confess all in a pool of tears and pray for their compassionate understanding. Depending on your mate it could all work out.
Ya could also use your Ipod's voice recorder to catch your Teacher's response to your threat to leave the group for these reasons, and maybe sue him/her for thousands with an admission (I can just hear Sun Tzu cursing me).
The point is "The TRUTH will set you FREE", but ONLY if told to the right person.
Dear Not Groucho,
Thank you so much for speaking out. I promise I will pray for you. And I promise to base my next post upon the power of prayer.
There are many sources of the "Miraculous" all around us in this beautiful world.
Unfortunately, there is so much EVIL, too.
You may find some benefit if you read my previous post, "My School Story-Part 23-By Cayce" by scrolling up.
God Bless You, My Brother
I have a question on how sustainers and teachers are taught to do what they do. Do they learn simply by following the example of the teachers? or are they taught specific ways to make people feel humiliated or that they've done something wrong?
I was recounting a memory from high school where I learned a teacher lied to me, and the sustainer turned the story around to make it seem like I was responsible for the lie. Is this something that my sustainer would have been taught to do, to undermine my confidence?
When I was in school, some of the teachers were Michael and Paul (who I see in the photos) and another person named Eric-- his photo is not shown. Does anyone know how long these teachers have been there and what they do in order to become teachers? Do they have to pass some kind of test (for example a loyalty test)?
Thank you for any information.
To Bryan,
I don't have the information you need, but wanted to say I appreciate your question. And I hope there is someone out there who can answer.
I witnessed so many of those moments: one person would stand up and ask for help and get supported. Another would stand up and ask for help, in response, a teacher would twist the experience, questioning his/her memory and perception of reality. It seemed so arbitrary and even then I would wonder whether this was a tactic -- but I also found some way to justify it.
To Not Groucho,
I want to encourage you to keep posting and reaching out. You may find that some of your friends are also no longer in school. AND I know the depression of which you speak. I could really feel my spirits sinking in the last year or so of my school tenure. I started feeling so empty and lost; I remember specific conversations with friends (who knew nothing of school) in which I asked, "What happened to me? I used to have hopes and dreams?" Now, I know that the emptiness was coming from looking to others for answers. It was coming from this learned dependency.
Next week is Thanksgiving and I am extraordinarily grateful to be out from under that large thumb. And I find the connection to others who also left invaluable. We're out here, so keep on reaching.
Hi Cayce and Hummingbird (and all)--
Thanks for the kind words and good thoughts. I'm in a good place. I got out long ago but wish I'd left sooner. I knew a lot of the people mentioned here, and am so curious to know if some of the people writing or contributed stories on the esoteric freedom site were people I knew! One of the folks I'm pretty sure (E). :) I had some good experiences, and there was some good "help" but so much was wrong. It's mind-blowing to read about some of the adoptions.
In addition to being older, I am much wiser and far less inclined to think that (most of the time,anyway)someone knows better than me about what to do in my life, although I certainly seek the advice and wisdom of people whose opinion and intelligence I value. Remember the Groucho line that was mentioned in school," I'd never belong to a club that would have me as a member?" I feel a little differently these days--more like "The club would have to be really fabulous for me to give any time and energy to it. My one wild and precious life is far too valuable to waste on anything less than the good and the true, the uplifting and the beautiful." I have to do a little more research to see if I agree that it's a cult, but it certainly has the nutso element going on.
(insert theme from Twilight Zone**)
**or maybe Ghostbusters
My School Story-Part 41-By Cayce
I'm gonna tell you about my "adopted" son, Dusty.
I was sent to a local ASPCA (animal shelter) to get a kitten for our daughter. When I got there, however, I was irresistibly drawn to a much bigger cat. He was short haired and completely and uniformly the same shade of med/dark gray over the entirety of his body, with a black nose. Looked very much like the breed known as a "Russian Blue." His "spirit" seemed to call out to me.
BTW, Ouspensky always had cats. He said they were one of the few animals that had an "Astral Body", I guess like in Astral Projection where a person can supposedly send their consciousness to a distant place.
I also remember reading Rosicrucian material that spoke of spots on the Earth where nothing would grow, even if in the middle of a lush field. They pointed out how all animals would shun these spaces, with the exception of cats, who would often even go to sleep in the center of such an area.
I choose him and they told me he was about 3 yrs old. Turned out he was probably about 7 months old and destined to be a very large cat.
When we got him home he wouldn't eat anything we gave him. Neither wet canned, or dry cat food. Not even "table scraps." Eventually we discovered the only thing he would eat was fresh white meat chicken. So we bought whole "rotisserie chickens" at the supermarket and we ate the dark meat and fed him the breasts. I'm ashamed to admit I can't recall whether it was water or milk he'd originally drink, but I think milk.
But he took to his new surroundings fairly well. Used only the litter box from day one. But even after two or three weeks HE WOULD NEVER PURR. A cat purrs when feeling safe, secure & happy. And he didn't come to us for petting/cuddling, he stayed to himself.
I went to bed one night, and as I lay there on my back I silently said a little informal prayer to God which, basically, went as follows: "Dear God, I don't know what kind of life this little creature has had. I don't know if he grew up loveless on the streets, or if he was with a cruel human family. But it is as if he has an ice cube around his heart. He doesn't seem to be able to give or receive love. Please, Father in Heaven, melt that ice cube."
No sooner than I finished that prayer, Dusty jumped up on the bed (for the very 1st time in his life) and laid down on my pillow, with his back against my ear and began purring. He did this every night for the rest of his life, whether I went to bed at 4 AM, or 4 PM.
Whether you want to view this as God instantly answering my prayer, or as this creature having some sense of understanding of my thoughts/concern/love, and responding, either way it is just one more of the Miracles available to us every single day.
Or, of course, you can view it as simple coincidence: the little dumb cat just happened to get lonely & was feeling a little more secure after 3 wks, and just happened to try to connect with someone that seemed like they might be "safe", and it just happened to be after he was prayed for.
That's fine with me, Brother. If you wanna see life as so empty, go ahead.
But I know better. This wasn't the only "miracle" demonstrated to me through Dusty, whose name, BTW came about cos he looked like a black cat that someone had used to dust the furniture.
Thanks for clarifying "No Groucho" as I was scratching my head tryna figure where the hell that came from last night.
Bryan,
I was not there long enough to answer your question, but I would suspect a mixture of the two. The Teachers AND Sustainers probably both learned from experience. As they were accepted into higher levels they were probably given tips on how best to acquire desired results.
I kinda doubt anyone came out and directly admitted to them that it was all a scam but, rather, couched it all in terms of School principles, and the best course of action to take to best help both the School and its Students; with the ultimate rule being: DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO KEEP THEM HERE!
The constant spying/reporting of one on another acted as the "Loyalty Test" I'm sure. It is the same thing Hitler's Brown Shirts had the kids doing against their own parents.
And I apologize that the only two responses you've gotten are from folks that don't know. Ashiata gave us an update not too long ago showing that 45 people visit here every day. I had hoped that my utter candor on these pages would inspire more visitors/contributors.
But I am coming close to the end of my 30 day aim to share info, and perhaps need to find a different medium to air my message. I have not heard back from Ashiata who, for all I know, may be Mr. Raskopf himself. So I took the liberty of copying all these posts just in case they disappear from this site due to my "unworthiness."
I also have to consider "The Law Of Unintended Consequences" whereby, in my zeal, I may have unwittingly discouraged people from posting, lest they find their own "Cayce" tracking them down for ruining their lives by getting them hooked on "DOPE" that destroyed their families and bank accounts.
BTW, I do not normally live/think with these School terms. They are used here because they are a common language for this select group.
As a final observation, I am ashamed of the cowardice exhibited by this group of readers as a whole. It is just as I've always found in REAL LIFE: for the most part, the men are cowards and it is mainly the women that speak up and take a stand. School held dances/parties and had the women invite the men to dance cos they knew if they waited for the men to take the initiative, IT WOULD NEVER HAPPER!
At least they had something right!
Cayce,
I responded to you by email & attempted a post that disappeared off this thread. The host has not responded to my inquiry.
I did not respond to your 3 increasingly angry messages because I did not want to. Your lack of respect or understanding of this decision confirms it. "Cowardice" - why are you using a pseudonym? You do not have a glimmer of a clue what those of us who were enslaved for years went through - though you clearly have not come to terms with your 75 day "experiment" 23 years later. You are much too full of yourself to have a fruitful conversation with me - yet I am glad your writings have helped others. I hope you find the peace of mind I have in relation to your cult experience.
The only other name I have used is dar3463 on Ross site.
Don,
I assure you I never received your e-mail. If I had and it said you did not welcome my communication I would not have continued trying to reach you. And I would have mentioned it here. I have not heard back from Ashiata, either, though I e-mailed him on 11/9.
Also, the "cowardice" I spoke of in no way referred to you, as you are, quite obviously, an unusually courageous individual. I was hoping (and still am) to inspire other who visit this site to speak up on these issues.
As to my use of a pseudonym on this site, it is purely for the purposes of testing my own computer's security. Also, for testing those I contact. I have operated from day one under the assumption that I would at some point lose my anonymity. I provided my real name, phone number and e-mail address to Roseann, Ashiata and you.
You build and repair homes. I have been blessed with an insatiable desire to learn about healing since my late teens. I have been honored with the privilege of delivering healing to many people and animals over the course of my life, never once accepting a single cent in return.
I am truly sorry you and I did not hit it off, and for the apparent e-mail snafus partly to blame.
Keep up the good fight, Don. I know I will.
Sorry Don.
Occasionally, comments go into a spam folder... Everything should be posted now under the date it was originally posted.
ashiata, I actually tried emailing at the email listed on your homepage, but it bounced back as undeliverable.
Cayce, I don't think that after experiencing this group for 2 1/2 months you can really understand what some of these people had been through. I was in for 6ish years and wasn't hurt in the same way people who had spouses and children there did, although it did affect me badly in some ways. Hard to imagine the people who were there for 20 years. No one is a coward because they aren't acting on your timeframe or as you see fit.
After doing some research into cults or at the very best, high expectation/impact groups, I am blown away. Me? In a cult? I am so sad to have believed in something that really wasn't the truth.
Cayce,
I had hoped -- when I posted to you about what I thought was your final Roseann post -- that you had worked something through, worked something out for yourself. But it seems not, and I'm not sure how to respond to some of your wilder posts on all sorts of subjects.
After 20 years in the cult, this blog has been a big part of my own healing. That said, I've read nearly all your posts, and I am no clearer about what you are after here.
Bryan,
You asked a very valuable question about how "sustainers" and "teachers" are trained in the Gans group. "Imitation", "Instruction", and "Intimation" are my three rough-draft short answers, based upon first hand experience.
First, about "sustainers:"
By the time one is asked to sustain, a "student" has been sustained him- or herself for several years, and watched "teachers" work directly in class with other "students." A "form" is given -- a suggested frequency of phone calls, a verbal template for the contents of weekly sustainer reports, and a surprisingly skimpy set of ideas which link this activity to the traditions of Ouspenky/Gurdjieff work.
Then it is kind of sink or swim. If you are a sustainer, "how to" help is available on as as-needed basis, from the extremely over-stretched "teachers" who run this activity. In more than 12 years of sustaining, there was no systematic training in how-to-be-a-better-sustainer. One's activity as a sustainer rarely received attention, unless one was remiss in some way.
In retrospect, the primary purposes of sustaining are the retention of brand-new students, the training of would-be "older students" in the taking on of more responsibility, and a certain kind of surveillance. The first of these purposes may be acknowledged, the second is overtly acknowledged, and the third is never acknowledged. These purposes are served even when a genuine mutual affection develops between "student" and sustainer, which it very often does.
In my experience, sustainers knew where they fit in the food chain: by and large, none would have presumed to dress down a sustainee in the way "teachers" did in class. In fact, some
some sustainers tried upon occasion to protect or shield their sustainees from the harsher aspects of "school."
I'll continue on the subject of teachers, in another post. Please keep asking, if you need more specific information.
zaticiMy School Story-Part 42-By Cayce
Unlike Freemasonry, there were no "blood oaths" not to reveal what you'd been taught. They have to say things like "May my bowels be ripped out of my body should I reveal the secrets shown to me." And, yes, this is a paraphrase, and not an exact quote. If ya want exact quotes use a search engine.
In fact, let me give you a lesson right now. Don't limit yourself to "Google" as there are many "free-er", if that's even an actual term, search engines. Ya might even try typing "search engines" in Google, itself, to find others.
And when you use them don't stop if you don't find your mark on the 1st two pages. I just posted about Roseann Pascale a few days ago, but you won't find my post til the 6th page on Google.
My point is not to dig for Roseann, but WHATEVER/WHOEVER you are interested in. If there are 40 pages, dig thru 40 pages (don't be lazy). If ya don't find it on Google, try Webcrawler (or whatever, for God's sake, take a little initiative).
But, were we not told, specifically, not to speak of School to others?
Right from the beginning?
I remember the "LIE" suggested to my class by Fred & Minerva: "if anyone asks you, on your way in or out of class, why all you folks are here, just say you are members of the "NEW YORK PLAYWRITES ASSOCIATION!"
That's the lie we were told to use in '88. What lie are YOU being told to use TODAY?
And one of the last assignments given was to see "Circus Soliel"(sp?) (under a tent on the NY river front, quite impressive, if I do say so myself) and also to watch the movie/DVD "The Manchurian Candidate" which I found/find quite interesting.
When I first saw it (it had been unavailable for years) I figured it was School's warning of "brainwashing" that we had to be wary of. Now I wonder if they weren't just "preparing the soil" for seeds they were preparing to sow.
"Someone never there could never understand. Someone there too long is quite possibly too tainted to see things clearly."
To Not Groucho-
Try emailing me again. My email had no space available but I have now remedied that situation.
Cayce-
I have to echo the thoughts posted here by Don and Ajax. I am simply not sure what you want from me and I don't think that I could be of any help to you.
I have left all of your posts intact but I have to say that I don't appreciate your foul language, your anti-semitic and racist remarks and your ramblings that have nothing to do with the issue at hand.
Amen, Ashiata. You have captured my thoughts exactly. We want this to be a very safe space for gradual opening up of wounded hearts - it's a slow and gentle process. I am always amazed at finding unexpected mind sets/prejudices and bigotries intgrained in my by years in the ganscult. Even now - 15 years after being out of it. For example, I still struggle with internalizing the homophobia we were taught, along with the idea that we are all asleep and somehow useless to life ("food for the moon"). I have also very recently (last week) once again realized how much neglect of children was fostered over the years - a conversation with my daughter enlightened me greatly. These things take a long time to mend.
Thank you to those who answered my question about teachers and sustainers. They seem to participate with one eye closed to what they do not want to see, rather than with real awareness of the manipulation.
I have a suggestion. I have told some people who have no inside knowledge of the group and asked them to look at this site. It is hard for them to get an idea of what is going on, or why the group is dangerous, sometimes.
Maybe you could have a section for "outsiders" or family members with links to the pieces that explain just what goes on. Otherwise people might have a hard time wading through the comments to piece it together.
I don't mean to demean the importance and helpfulness of the site, especially to people who were in. This is a really important site and I am really grateful.
Hi Ashiata--I tried again, but it bounced! I'll see if I can send again later
Ashiata,
If you compare the number of daily visitors to this site prior to 10/22/11, when my posts began, and those since then you'll see one of my goals has been achieved quite nicely.
I am attempting to share information that will be of value not only to past and present students but, even more importantly, to help those never part of this group to be able to get a realistic picture of what it was like. Whereas most of the posts here are fine for "experienced" readers, mine are aimed at creating mental movies that the "Average Joe" can make sense of.
While I have always preferred "plainspoken" folks, I will respect your wishes and tone down the use of frank language.
As to anti-Semitism, in every instance where I mentioned Jews I was bending over backwards trying to warn how the Occupy Wall Street movement was filled with people who would love nothing more than to see it lead to a second Holocaust in this country. If you meant other Semites, ie., various Islamic Peoples, I will also respect your wishes, though I can document my claims. Political Correctness, however, often equates to the three "Hear no, See no, Speak no evil" monkeys and discourages needed discussion.
Bryan,
Try this:
http://www.rickross.com/groups/theater.html
comprehensive, maybe more detail than you are looking for but a good start.
Ashiata,
Eternal gratitude for hosting this healing home for each individual's evolving truth. Thanks especially for allowing Cayce's rants (and Moishe's before him - they seem to have similar loose screws) to play out in public. I doubt his ramblings will turn off anyone and believe your comments and wisdom in allowing this to run it's course here - without attacking his "essence" or ________ (insert your favorite cult bullshit) - will greatly impress doubters or potential escapees.
Cayce:
I finally can’t stand it any more. I have to say that how angry I am that you are hijacking this blog:
I read this comment …
“As a final observation, I am ashamed of the cowardice exhibited by this group of readers as a whole."
… thought, well, maybe he is right. I have been increasingly irritated and offended by Cayce and not saying anything about it:
O.k. I’ll take my stand: if you look at the sheer amount of real estate you’ve taken to tell your story (a man who was in school less than three months) it’s quite astounding. This blog is supposed to be a public forum for discussion. It is meant to be a place that students and ex-students can go for help, for answers, for support. It is not your personal stage. I imagine somewhere in your 40-plus part story there are some helpful bits, but I stopped reading them. There is too much other crap to sift through. I don’t need to know your personal beef with those who accuse you of homophobia and racism – (although – I must admit, in reading some of your diatribes, I’ve also would have thrown in anti-Semitic and misogynist) Your politics (i.e. opinions about Occupy Wall Street participators) are of no concern to me. I don’t come to this blog to debate current events and your opinions don’t help me come to terms with dedicating the last five years of my life to a lie. I also feel badly for this woman, Rosanne. Did it occur to you that she probably doesn’t want her last name, phone number, location and work publicized on a blog???
You were in school for less than three months. There are people out there who are in school right now, trying to decide whether or not to stay. Are your diatribes and ramblings helping? There are people who were in for 10, 20, 30 years whose lives were torn apart by “school”. They aren’t writing volumes about their experiences in this blog – but if they were, I would find it understandable. But I don’t understand your intentions. And I wish you’d take your rant somewhere else.
Nicely said, Hummingbird. I couldn't agree more. Cayce, it's nothing personal. Perhaps, however, you just need to scale back and look at the big picture. Your posts did have some nuggets of information/experiences that were valuable to me and I am sure many people, but let's practise some restraint here, in this venue, and try to respect the "space" of this blog as a space that belongs to us all. It is a space intended for healing and helping above all and that should be the primary focus I believe.
My School Story-Part 43-By Cayce
The people have spoken so I will take my leave, but only after these last few posts to make things clearer for those under the heading: "someone never there could never understand" so that they may better be able.
This School/Cult takes its cue from G. I. Gurdjieff. He was a sort of Rasputin (Russian Mystic/Hypnotist) that both existed in roughly the same time frame. Rasputin was feared to have gained control over the ruling Russian Family through his mind control techniques.
Gurdjieff was never mentioned by name during my School tenure. Only as "G." by the Teachers. He engaged in sex regularly with his Students, just like Fred Mindel (see his page on this site for the post from the Christian model he started dating in August of 2011 that Don helped).
While G. was still married to his wife, he produced many offspring with his Students, described by one bio as "dark liquid eyed children."
And Fred has a lot in common with our Prez & his 1st Lady. All 3 formerly held law degrees, tho all three are currently barred from practicing law in this country. NO EXPLANATION HAS EVER BEEN OFFERED FOR THESE THREE TO NOT BE ALLOWED TO PRACTICE.
G. wrote of his study of a voodoo technique where pins were inserted in a doll to successfully harm the intended victim. His book, "Beelzebub's Tales To His Grandson." stars the Devil, Beelzebub, who watches the inhabitants of Earth from his telescope on Mars over the centuries. He often came to Earth to help the poor "3 brained beings."
At the end this Devil is rewarded for his services by growing more points/branches on his horns/antlers than any other Devil.
And we can read about Ouspensky attending Satanic Black Masses in "In search Of Ouspensky" by a former member of the 80's group "Blondie." Got it around here somewhere.
But G. was handy and could fix almost any broken machine. He took it as a challenge to learn. I have followed that good example. He also sold Persian carpets, adopting whatever personality necessary to make the sale.
He did share good info on corruption like how a Singer/Performer traveling across America would be preceded by a confederate newspaper writer writing positive reviews so that all would see him/her when he/she appeared in their town.
He had some 16 syllable word starting with "Trogo" to elucidate the law of the universe which was translated as "I EAT MYSELF" which was nothing short of brilliant. You know, food chain and all: big fish eat little fish; animals crap, plants eat it & grow, we eat plants or animals that ate plants.
TBC
My School Story-Part 44-By Cayce
Like I said, G. was exceptionally persuasive by virtue of hypnotism and/or telepathy. During the war in Russia he would show a piece of paper showing he had permission to be in a certain area for a Scientific expedition. If he encountered the opposing army, he'd show them the opposite side of the same sheet of paper. Kind of reminiscent of Obi Wan using the "Force" to convince the Storm Trooper guards that "These aren't the ones you're looking for, tell them to go ahead."
G. often spoke of life as being "two rivers" that we could take. One being the normal human life. The other being the "Elitist" idea/lie sold to Students whereby they'd be conned out of all their money trying to "Evolve."
If you just read the pages suggested you'll see Sharon Gans & Fred Mindel & Minerva Taylor & all the others have bought homes running into MILLIONS & MILLIONS OF DOLLARS! Where do you think they got it? FROM THE IDIOTS!
Dress was quite casual at School, with most in jeans & tees. But Fred usually wore a suit. So did the guy that collected tuition. I think he was named Paul or Robert.
Think it might've even been the same guy who, when he left, quoted Pink Floyd "and then one day you find ten yrs have got behind you" from the bleachers by the front windows, and now I wonder was he going to Boston?
And there were two separate groups of older/newer students. On one night the new students came in first to spare the older ones suffering rehashing of old basic info. The older students came in an hour or two later.
And maybe on the other night the new students left early leaving the older students to remain for advanced teaching.
You were instructed to ignore the Teachers if you ran into them outside of School.
And, of course, we were taught we were "Food for the Moon" to have our essences eaten by it at death to nourish it so it could grow to become a SUN one day! Do you remember what I showed you about Scientology teaching its Crap on a gradient scale so you swallowed all their Bull?
Same crap Carlos Castenada taught with his Don Juan stories, only "The Great Eagle" ate us! In his cosmology you could "grow" a double thru "Dreaming" & "Stalking" that the Eagle could eat at your death, allowing YOU to continue living.
Do I think there's value to any of this? Yes! Castenada taught we should live as if Death was always at our left (or maybe it was right) so that we'd make optimal use of our time here. As a matter of fact, if you read the Steve Jobs post this thread is based upon you'll find that exact lesson.
And I did apologize for not starting my ranting on its own thread so those not wanting to put up with me here could be spared. It's up there somewhere.
I'll leave you with a few suggestions:
Rosie O'Donnell is pissed at being ill used by Sharon Gans. Get a few of you together and I'm sure she'd welcome you on her O.W.N. show to talk about this cult on NATIONAL TV.
Since a single copy of Artists & Orphans can't be found School is obviously buying them all up with the MILLIONS from YOU. Get one and make copies and sell them on EBAY and have a friend bid $200. School will outbid them and you'll recoup some of your money.
Put those maggots at TMZ to some good use and contact them and volunteer to take their cameras and interviewers to Sharon's home and or School sites. They exist for the sole purpose of digging up dirt on stars, even has-been stars if it's a slow news week.
Eyes Wide Shut is a great Secret Society film.
And we just saw "Perfect Parents" (2006) which exemplifies the dangers of being in a school you don't belong in, as well as how lies tend to spiral out of control.
And finally, our future if we don't wake up can be viewed quite realistically on "The Road" (2009).
TBC
My School Story-Part 45-By Cayce
Amazing how "Students" can't recognize a "conscious shock" when it smacks them in the face. Nicoll taught that the true meaning of "Turn The Other Cheek" was to ask the Teacher for some more unpleasant TRUTH about themselves!
Bye
Whew! Now that that's done...ashiata, I tried emailing you again and it didn't bounce back, so assuming you got it?
Thanks Hummingbird, Don, Ashiata, and others...thanks for speaking out.
That Cayce thing started out on the edge of interesting, promising even...and went into ego-maniacal emptiness in somewhat of a gradual way so I kept reading. Now I feel cheated. Time wasted hanging on for the revelation. But there wasn't one...except that we were witness to ego-maniacal emptiness.
Kind of like "fake school."
I hope it's over for good.
Just like "fake school."
When will I learn?
Things that I am thankful for this Thanksgiving:
I am thankful that I have now been “school-free” for more than 4 years. The process of healing myself has certainly not been instantaneous, but it is happening.
I am thankful for those who left school before me and showed the way, if not explicitly then by example.
I am thankful for this blog and the associated web-site. Ashiata Shiemash, you have performed a great service to all of us by creating this little corner of cyber-space where we can interact and help each other. Thank you for doing so.
I am thankful to everyone (OK - almost everyone) who has posted their stories here and shared their struggles. By doing so you have made it easier for the rest of us. You have also set the example for anyone still in the false school who summons the courage to break the rules and visit us. Leaving “school” can be done, and it does not mean failure. On the contrary, it means success!
I am thankful for the former classmates whom I have met in person since leaving. The warm welcome you have given means so much that I cannot begin to express it adequately.
I am thankful that I have begun to play my guitar again. While in school, I only found the time to do so when it was directly related to school, either in connection with the Christmas party or for an aim. Since leaving school I stopped playing, because I had grown to associate it with school. Stop one, stop the other, as silly as that seems now. But I have gotten past that block and am now reconnecting with why I played all those years before being sucked into school. The fingers still need some limbering and rebuilding my calluses isn’t a whole lot of fun, but I am enjoying myself!
I am thankful for my family. I have been repairing my relationship with them, which had become strained due to school. There is still work to do there, but the future is looking good.
All the best and more to you, Samwise.
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