Welcome to the Esoteric Freedom Blog.
This blog is by and for all present and former students of Sharon Gans, Alex Horn and Robert Klein.
We hope this will enable everyone to speak freely and express themselves without fear of retribution of any sort.
We are only interested in the truth. We are only interested in becoming truly free and supporting our friends in their efforts to become loving and compassionate men and women on their journeys to discover the meaning and purpose of their lives.
We also want to keep you posted on what is happening with the website.
We believe that it is important for everyone to understand that our first amendment right to free speech that is protected under the Constitution is in jeopardy. Although there is nothing illegal on the website, threatening letters from attorneys have harassed the host servers on two occassions to remove the website. This is a very important issue. Freedom of Speech is a dirty business. Here, anyone can log in as "anonymous" and comment on anything they would like.
Silence is complicity. To remain silent is to remain under school rules which are designed to keep us silent and complacent. It's time to regain control over our own lives.
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"You are here in order to enable the world to live more amply, with greater vision, with a finer spirit of hope and achievement. You are here to enrich the world, and you impoverish yourself if you forget the errand." --- Woodrow Wilson
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270 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 270 Newer› Newest»This is a very long post. I have deliberately not capitalized school or the work.....
I have been coming to terms with my time in school for several years now. I was in school for approx. 10 years. I was married to someone in school and have a child from that union.
My ex-spouse is still in school. While we were together, I would be so frustrated at his dedication to school over everything else. He would be first to volunteer for the most unappealing jobs, but at home, could not be bothered by basic maintenance of home and family.
I left because I felt the demands of school on us, time-wise and financially, were too much. To be told over and over that school was more important than our families and any other "life" commitments. Being required to attend classes on holidays, because school was more important. Not being allow to do “Being” work hardly ever. Or, if I tried to work on my “being”, I was told to move on, get over it. To be told that the good vibrations and our enlightenment were very important in this world. Yet, we never did a project or donation that was directly helpful to the world at large.
Certainly, the movie about the orphans and the supposed weekly donation to these kids in Soviet Georgia was a direct help, if it ever got there. But, what about closer to home? What about our homes? Isn’t the idea behind the school of the 4th way that we are doing the work while we are living our lives? That that is the best ground for us to learn and evolve? But, what if we are not allowed any time to live our lives because we are too busy working for school?
I agree with many of the comments made by others. I experienced many of the same feelings. Squelching my own opinion. We "studied" the story of "The Emperor's New Clothes." It's like a distraction from how school really is. The Emperor really didn't have any clothes and we were the crowd who wanted to see the clothes, knew that they were not there, but didn't have the guts to say so.
I stayed in school longer than I would have liked because I feared that my marriage would dissolve if I left. My spouse said "Oh, no, it wouldn't matter, I respect your decision whether you return to school or not."
I agonized over my decision to leave. Since the bulk of my friendships centered around school, I knew that once I left, all these people would be cut off from me. I would be invisible in the outside world to them. They would be following the instructions I had followed when meeting a former student. Don't acknowledge them, don't speak with them or allow them to engage with you.
Many strong experiences came from working together on projects. Creating something, whether it was a party or a garden or a fine meal. What friendships did I have out in the world which would support me, since I hadn't had the time to attend them when I was in school. And what did this mean for my marriage?
At first my leaving was a short break from it. I was very busy with my work and deadlines and travel, and I needed some space to take care of those things and get clear on what I wanted. I was also grieving several losses in my close family. Then, once I was gone from school, I couldn't find it in me to return. I finally started feeling freedom from the guilt I felt over what I wasn't doing for school. Over the students I refused to try to bring to school. I hated 3rd line. I wasn't sure how much I believed in being in school, how could I bring someone else? Plus, it meant a lot of time away from my family and work and housecare and friends and a huge investment of money in classes and concerts and meals and parking in Boston, etc.
The leaders of school helped end our marriage. But, my husband chose to stay in the work, because School was his first marriage. He married me because they encouraged it. He left me because he was following their instructions. I could repeat every "talk" we had that was their words coming through him. The way he spoke and gestured, etc. It was like "Being Robert." If you live with someone long enough, you can tell if what you hear comes from their words and ideas or not. Especially, if you are familiar with the words and ideas from the behind the scenes source of school.
My husband found that both me and our child were an inconvenience in his schedule. We were lucky to eat one meal together per week. I am not exaggerating!!!!! He would say, "10 good, quality minutes spent with our child is more important than 2 hours of hanging around." Where have you heard that before?
I wanted to spend more time with him. Our child complained about never seeing Daddy. He told me that I was selfish and that I demanded too much of him. And, that he wanted to be able to have some time for himself. Being gone every night, most of the weekends. Rarely going to sleep before 2am. Dashing out of the house with no shower or food, just in time to get to work. To start the whole cycle again. This was insane.
In school, external considering is supposed to be a very important way of treating others. Of course, it is also said, that you need to externally consider all the time and to those in school, 10 times the amount you would in life. Once I was out of school, I wasn't considered by my husband. I was stuck at home with no notice of his plan to be absent at night. No chance to get a sitter because it was too last minute if I did have some warning.
School claims to know the "truth". It is the one "right" way. It is interesting how that is so appealing and gives one a feeling of superiority. "The only people who are truly awake and able to help the world are we merry few in the work"
Kind of like Jehovah Witnesses. Aren't they the ones with the “truth” and their job is to save us all? You can say this about so many all- encompassing religions and organizations that ask everything of their members. Mormons, Scientologists, other cults and religions.
I never was able to speak to anyone about my experience. My husband refused to talk about school with me. He didn't want my thoughts to poison his. I needed someone to talk to. I couldn't talk to anyone in my life. I was too afraid of being judged by them. How could they understand what school is?
And, I couldn't talk to one of the "teachers" since their intention would be for me to return to school. I wouldn't receive an objective viewpoint.
I am glad that this blog is continuing. I am sorry that they, leaders of school, feel a need to stop it. It could only be because they fear the truth getting to any of their disciples, whom they refer to as clients. Of course, a client could be a good description of a person who pays someone for direction, advice, etc. But, these are clients who are brought to believe that since we are suggestable, we want to leave ourselves only open to the truth that school offers us. So, do not surf the web, do not read commentaries by scholars in books. Let us influence you and show you the truth that serves our purpose. What is that purpose? Power over others? Money? Servitude? Reverence?
Isn't TRUTH what we were all looking for? When you are asked to do the 3rd line of work of bringing students to school, you are told that people will come because they are at a low point and searching for "meaning" in their lives. Or, they are doing amazingly well and are on a high and want it to continue.
I never met anyone of the second type. I am sure it was said to distract us from seeing that we were looking for someone who was vulnerable to the influence of school. A lonely person who would welcome the community and direction and support given. And have the financial means to join it.
I know that I am saying a lot. But, I feel that I am a normal and intelligent person. I found my way to school and it fit many of the needs I felt I had. Coming from another part of this country and feeling very alone because of the lack of community and being away from close family and friends. Yet, over time my instincts told me that there was something off and I had to leave. Now, I am better educated and am so glad to have heard that inner voice which had been muffled and shut away.
I made many aims and accomplished some fine events and creative projects. I think we all want to be part of a bigger whole. To not feel alone in a lonely world. Cities can produce groups like this because of the lack of community and connection present. And, the large population and urban sprawl helps to keep the secret of school and its influence.
As I see my ex remain under school’s influence and as I see a friend get heavily involved, to the exclusion of all parts of her life outside of work with another organization, I feel I want to help those of you who have doubts. You who want to make that move to freedom from the restictive control of school.
Anyone who is completely sold on an organization doesn’t have the space to hear what we have to say. But, if there is a kernel of doubt, this may get in. I may not be able to help those closest to me, who have no space to here my comments, but, maybe one of you can realize that you always have permission to live your life in or out of school. You can leave, and you won’t die. All of school is not black and bad. That is why you are confused. I had some very fine and deep emotional experiences during performances of the dancers or singers or the band or actors. Working on food preparation, eating the meals. Making decorations and taking in the beauty of it. Pushing ourselves to achieve. That is not bad. It would be wrong to deny something that was real for us. Can we see this experience objectively?
I have forgiven much of what has happened. If I don’t, I cannot move on. Forgiveness does not mean that what was done was right, but it does allow me to let go and live my life now.
Let's have some balance. Let's seek and be aware and hope and dream and love and accept and live well.
Long live the freedom of expression in our country!
To the poster of the long anonymous post:
Thanks for taking the time to write that.
It is difficult to weigh the good vs the not good in terms of our experience with this branch of a very large tree/vine...which for better or worse I think it is. I spent many years also and am outside looking in sort of as my x-spouce is still a major player. However...my labor now when I reflect and remember is to try and see what was larger view and what the teachers were trying to accomplish. For example when tasks were given I think it was to put us up against ourselves in the direction of self knowledge. It may have seemed crude sometimes and involved giving up or making more money but it may have been a lack of creativity in giving tasks. I agree with moishe3 that all was not bad and to hold all of our expeience (as much as one can) is the way to go... in my humble opinion. I would hope this venue is not just for complaining..you know. But perhaps sharing what we have learned however painful.
You made me think of the title of that movie: "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly". No, of course this is not just for complaining. I remember Sharon talking about seeing things in the round - holding all the aspects of things in your mind together. Which of course means to tear down the "buffers" that keep us only seeing one side of the story. For me, it's important to separate the Work, which is timeless and eternal, from this particular
school. The Work is all around us and as we learned: if an idea is real then it seems to show up in all the major religions and esoteric systems. The Work is not just the special territory of Sharon, Alex and Robert. It's their interpretations and the way they twisted the ideas that was troubling.
Each one of us, had our own experience of school and each one of us was there for different reasons. It's not possible to judge someone else's experience - it was what it was. We each learned what we learned, cried our tears, battled our dragons, fought for what we though was the highest in ourselves and others, watched, helped, and so much more.
I just don't think that this school is in the same class as Plato, Buddha, Christ, the Medicis, the Egyptians, Sufis or the Dali Lama. We all wanted it to be and that was why we were there. I wanted it to be. I bet my whole life on it. But it wasn't.
All I am interested in at this point is the truth - and that differs a little for all of us. I want the truth and I want to live my life and make some sense out of the last 20 years. I am continuing my spiritual journey and this school was a part of that. As an old friend said to me recently -
"In spite of everything, I believe that I am where I was meant to be at this point in my life."
Query:
Did anyone find their way to the group through a therapist or a mental health provider?
I never heard of anyone coming into the group via therapy on the contrary...therapy was discouraged and candidates would be asked to give up their therapist for an experimental month.
Sometimes people were "referred" to a therapist if they were considered not healed enough to work on themselves...this made some sense.
I have been surprised at the relief and healing that has come to me in finding my friends again. It saddens me to know that so many have pain leftover from their time "in school." It saddens me more to know that my friends still in "school" cannot think for themselves, will not think for themselves, and shall not think for themselves. So be it - yet I cry for them still. I count myself among the lucky ones for all that I learned during my time there, for finding my best friend who became my husband during that time, and for not staying longer than I did.
peace to all
Yes. Another thank you for this blog site to hear and write comments for a broader view of things as they were. I supose each individual has to process their experience and consider all the elements involved. Am I big enough to absorb what I need to know and contiue to evolve? Is school/the Work really invisible?. Was the "class" for preparation?
I like what Hassin is saying about healing and positive attitude when it comes to our past experience. If eaten properly in light of all those beautiful ideas surely it can lead us to fuller and more conscious lives. I wish this for all of us. Does anyone think that now we are connected in a different way? This blog thing makes me think that....
I should have left sooner than I did also. I stayed out of fear too. But I also stayed for other reasons. The friendships and the ideas captivated me too. But mostly I was sure I would fall off the edge of the earth and die alone like a dog if I left. But it was all imagination and lack of self or something. God had not deserted me. Now I think I was a fool..for the right things. I wanted what was spoken of friendships,comrades, kindred souls and a common direction. Could have been a fool for less. Glad to air some thoughts hear. Thanks
Again, hearty thanks to those who conceived and made possible this forum - at potential personal and legal risk, is seems.
I hope to leave a much longer post soon, but in the meantime, let me say this much.
When I first got involved with the group - in the 80's in NYC - I was absolutely thrilled. I overlooked any questions or blemishes because I bought in to the idea that it was a school descended from antiquity and linked to incredible works of art and civilization. I never questioned this link. I guess I didn't want to. And under the banner of something so amazing and rare and "directly connected" to higher influence, I was able to accept virtually anything asked of me and ignore anything that wouldn't really fit if scrutinized.
So the secrecy made sense, the shunning of family and friends, the short visits home, the sacrifice of giving away so much money, the dropping everything no matter how precious to "life" in order to help with a line of work, etc.
In a way, it was very liberating and empowering (at first). I could do anything, because it was ordained from above. We didn't need to abide by the paltry rules or police laws of life. Everything could be justified. (A shocking parallel to religious extremism around the world.)
All new horizons of study opened up, and so many more hours in each day to experience things.
By and large, I found the ideas and the experiences amazing, and very much valued the community of friends I shared them with.
But at a certain point (probably due to 3rd line of work), the enthusiasm faded and things started to look different. If the leaders were so exalted, why were they screaming and cussing at good people and throwing them out in public embarassment? Why did Sharon seem drunk so often. How could they say things that obviously made no sense? And why did I (and everyone else) never speak up to challenge them?
Why do we not study the material we were asked to prepare? Why do we present aims sometimes but not always, especially when I killed myself to bring in something elaborate? Why do we need to pay yet another monthly amount for Sharon's retirement? Why can't I be with my kids on Saturdays? What is the deal with these kids who seem to belong to multiple couples? Was it really due to my own Being weaknesses that I didn't get it, or did the leaders really not seem to be so wonderful?
What happened to the focus on ideas? The ideas were great, but it seemed that they were becoming selectively applied and followed. More time was spent on other lines of work which crowded out all other life pursuits. Spouse gone, job gone, family remote, school becoming only an obligation.
In retrospect, it took way to long to get thrown out. I could smell the discontent in myself for years. The not really buying what was being sold. The not understanding how certain things could be going on if this really was under higher influence. the fear that maybe it wasn't so exalted after all.
And honestly, if I hadn't gotten the boot, I may have stayed on for years more - even with the doubts. Why? What else did I have (or so I thought to myself)? I had given up friends and family and had no time for things outside school. It had become my life, for better or worse. I probably would have hung on much as an abused spouse would.
But after being forced out, I experienced relief more than anything. I wasn't mad at the school - I wasn't thinking then of all the abuses - I just felt like being let out of a dark room into the real light. There was so much of the world to experience - without having to get approval. I could actually sleep now and then if I wanted to. I could go to a movie that wasn't required. I could quit that third job, etc. etc. etc.
Anyway, I promised a short post and got carried away - gotta go. Bottom line is that things turned out fine and now with a decade of distance, I can better see what was really going on back then. I am so appreciative of the information and exchanges on this site.
To Anexiled1 -
Thanks so much for putting some of those experiences into words. I too was kicked out after having been unhappy and disatisfied for quite a long time. (I was always kind of surprised that Sharon and Robert never got how unhappy I was when they were supposed to know me better than I knew myself.)
When I looked around the room, people were always dozing off, struggling to pay attention - it became after so many years a dull obligation instead of the exciting and hopeful experience it was at the begining.
I think also, that if I hadn't gotten thrown out, it would have taken me even longer to leave. In many ways I am grateful for being asked to leave (not that the violence of it was warranted at all) because I had been thinking about leaving for a long time and I didn't know how to do it.
What saddens me now is that there are so many bright, intelligent, highly creative people who are still there and who are still probably falling asleep and bored in class but they can't find the way to leave. The longer you are there the harder it is to leave because it becomes your life - even though they tell you that isn't true - that school isn't your life. If it wasn't your life, it would be so much easier to leave.
They say you must have a rich full life outside of school but that becomes an illusion because I never had the time to have a rich full life outside of school - I never felt like I was free to join any other communities or groups or had the time to devote to new friends if they weren't people I was pursuing for 3rd line of work. And what would I say to my new friends when they asked me to go out with them at night - I could never tell them the truth and I never had any free time to spend with them. And I bought what the told me - that if I left school things would be very hard for me and I would lose my possibilities and anything I had gained by my work in school.
Well, it simply isn't true. I wish there was a way to get my friends who are still in school to believe and understand this.
I now have a really really rich full life - spouse, children and lots of new friends. I have the community that my children belong to at their schools which are wonderful and very supportive now that I am open to it. I have several arts groups that I have joined. I have my church group who I have grown so much closer to. I am freer to travel and explore the world. I can do all the things that I had given up for school - I can read the newspaper and novels and watch movies whenever I want (I'm still not very fond of network TV I must say). My children don't have to be the "odd man out" because they don't know any TV shows or what Webkins are.
I have found that things that I would have snubbed my nose at while I was in school as part of the "spiritual supermarket" are really quite interesting and there are many people who are searching on their own spiritual jouneys and are involved in some very interesting things. While I was in school, I always felt that MY spiritual journey was much BETTER and HIGHER and REALER and MORE IMPOTANT than other peoples spiritual journeys. That's not becoming a real Man or Woman, that's elitism. I looked down on everyone else instead of understanding that we are all on this planet to help each other and love each other - we all struggle and no one's struggle is better or worse than another persons struggle.
I don't have to exaggerate a medical problem so I can get out of doing certain things. I have my evenings and my weekends to be with my spouse and my children: to read, write music, paint, cook, play guitar and piano, sing, play games, swim, dance, sleep, do yoga - whatever I feel like. A huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders and I feel much lighter.
I ran into an old friend from
school today. I called out his name and waved. He looked at me for a moment and then cast his eyes downwards and said nothing. He was not free to love me anymore the way I am to love him. I found it so sad that that someone who I was so close to once, couldn't even look me in the eye and smile at me. I am not the outcast - I am joined fully in an exciting and liberating life. He is the one who is chained into what he is told to believe in school, who can only follow the orders of his teachers, who is not able to think for himself, who has no free will, who doesn't have a smile for an old friend, or a song in his heart for me the way I have a song in my heart for him. I wish him well. I wish he knew how much I cared about him. I can only hold him in my heart and wish the best for him. Maybe someday, we can meet again as friends.
This blog is a great idea. The free exchange of information is the enemy of school, hence the secrecy and the prohibition against "leaking." Well, I don't know about you, but I listened politely to ignorant and ill-informed nonsense at least twice a week for longer than I usually care to admit. Knowing I'm not the only one who came to realize that the moments of spiritual insight I had during that time were despite, no due to, my participation in school is a powerful healing tonic. Reading your stories brings me memories, joy and relief, as it seems to do for many of you. Leak on, I say, leak on! We should all leak like sieves, until the catharsis is complete.
As some of you have been good enough to share your stories, here are a few paragraphs I wrote about my experience some time ago (and, lacking an appropriate forum for them, filed quietly away). They are not my best thoughts by far, and I have only loosely attempted to edit them to fit this blog) but here they are, anyway.
---- Cut here ----
When I was in college a friend looked at a collage I had made that included a photograph of G.I. Gurdjieff, pointed at the picture and asked me, “Do you know who this is?”
It was an obvious question to ask and an easy question to answer. The collage was a parody of the weird and wild world of esotericism, presented as if it were a flyer constructed by a secret society with all the answers. Amongst pictures of Adam Weishaupt and a statue of the “Gnostic Savior of the World” tantalizing questions were peppered. “Is this General Washington?” I asked, and “Why is this chicken laughing?” Under Gurdjieff’s portrait I wrote, “Who is this man?”
What I knew about Gurdjieff was limited. I had read that he offered some startlingly weird ideas. I had read that he might have spied for the Nazis in World War II (not likely true by the way). Mentally, I consigned him to a pile of mystical autocratic ideologues with disturbingly far right politics, like the Odinists or some of the groups formed around the Nine. Since I had no interest in far right politics, and considered autocratic teachings one of the most serious potential snags of any religious movement-- even then I preferred the Otisian assertion that “Everything forbidden is optional”-- I decided not to bother with Gurdjieff’s system, convinced that I would never, ever, get involved with a Gurdjieff group.
And so it wasn’t until many years later, during my second year with the group in Belmont, and a week after R---, in a private conversation, expressly forbid me from doing so, that I picked up a copy of Gurdjieff’s “Meetings with Remarkable Men” (a book my friend in college had gone on to recommend I read), and began to pay attention to it. By the time I turned the last page I was ready to leave the Belmont group forever.
As I read “Meetings…” it became increasingly clear to me that my self-imposed ignorance of Gurdjieff’s ideas had left me vulnerable to the manipulations of charlatans. I couldn’t gauge what the teachers in Belmont were telling us. Having previously had few thoughts of my own about the material they presented or exposure to other sources of information relating to what we were learning, I couldn’t speak to its authenticity or accuracy. None of the students could, which is probably why the ideas were fed to us in such carefully measured, and cautiously selected doses. Had we been fed too much, or given these doses in the wrong order, the usually unvoiced questions about what were we doing and why would have bubbled to the surface. Our teachers had no good answers to those questions, so they steered us towards the study of only pre-approved materials, and held our hands as we read, constantly steering us towards the conclusions and insights they approved of. In case the truth came out, they carefully stocked our intellectual arsenals with reasons to doubt our motivation for asking unsettling questions-- maybe it was our false personalities causing us to wonder where the money was going, maybe we really could imperil our evolution by reading the wrong books. They made certain that there was always at least one “skeptic” in our group of 40 or so – someone whose scientific background would make him ask questions for which they had easy answers. When all else failed they could simply clam up, or verbally brow beat the questioner into silence (a similar tactic they are employing with regards to this blog, this time using lawyers).
“Meetings with Remarkable Men” is often considered to be the prologue to the “All And Everything” series, which includes “Beezelubub’s Tales to His Grandson,” and “Life is Real Only Then, When I Am,” yet we skipped right over it to read “Beezelbub…” a book so strange that most people who read it quickly turn, in desperation, to a teacher to help them begin to make sense of it (it’s a bit like diving into Finnegan’s Wake without ever having read Ulysses or A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.) That sort of dependence on a teacher for even a basic understanding of the book served our teachers well; they had us at a serious disadvantage and they knew it.
If you are still with the group pick up a copy of “Meetings with Remarkable Men.” I can’t say what you will make of it, but I suspect that you, like me, will be delighted to find that Gurdjieff once painted pigeons yellow in order to sell them to gullible tourists as “canaries.” You may also begin to wonder, as I did, if there is much that is worthwhile in Gurdjieff’s thought, which mostly consists of his fascinating but tenuous interpretation of the work of other people. You might even being to see, if I did the huge disconnect between Gurdjieff’s ideas (whatever their worth) and what is taught in the group. As I put the book down, I found that all those years later my college friend’s question echoed with me still; after over two years in the group, did I know who Gurdjieff was? I didn’t, and if you are still in the group, neither, I suspect, do you.
If you are still in the group you have been given a thousand reasons to avoid that question, a thousand rationalizations for not listening to me. Before you grasp on to one, could I ask a favor; could you try to find a reason to disregard me that is yours alone, and not derived from group teachings or placed into your head by a teacher? Take it on faith alone if you must, but you are not so helpless that you cannot make a decision on your own. Intellectually speaking, if you do not believe you can stand on your own two feet, how will you ever learn to walk? And how much harder than walking is it to do what you (if you are at all like me) hope to do-- learn to fly?
Albert thanks for you insights. How much,do you think does a teaching like this have to do with the transmission devices? I am trying so hard since I left the NY group to see G and Mr.O and even Robert and Sharon and the others as agents trying to transmit something so big and beautiful that it brings out some kind of maddness and need to control the responses. And yes I was certinly ignonant of the material the led to B's Tales to his grandson and begged for some access to the material and so was led down the road that had been paved by these particular "agents". Interested in you comments. Thank you H
Hassin,
"Transmission devices," to use your term, mean both everything and nothing. If my (our?) teachers were transmission devices and G's work can only be made understandable by a teacher who is part of an unbroken chain, then the group was doomed to ignorance. R. and S. have no real connection to G. or O.'s work, as groups who can claim such a connection have pointed out (see quotes on Esoteric Freedom and Rick Ross' site). R. and S. are part of a broken pipeline and almost nothing gets through a broken pipeline.
But this begs a question; is an unbroken pipeline needed to understand or benefit form G’s teachings? I remember R. leaving the room suddenly one night in Belmont and returning looking dazed and ashen-faced. He claimed that he had suddenly had a moment of awakening, of self-remembering, a spiritual experience of not being asleep. He looked so shaken and moved that I believed that something extraordinary had occurred. Now, it may be that R. is a better actor than I give him credit for, but given the caliber of most of the actors associated with school I doubt he was convincingly faking it. Since R. is part of a broken pipeline, how did this occur? Dumb luck? The result of his efforts? Something else?
I don’t believe that G’s teachings, difficult and confusing as they are, can only be learned from a teacher who is part of an unbroken line. There is a good amount of evidence for this-- a number of G’s followers think that such a break happened when G. G and O. parted ways and O. struck out on his own. There is also Nichol’s claim that the work must be destroyed and rebuilt to be fully understood. Finally, there are G’s and O’s books— are these really meant only to be read by followers of an unbroken tradition? R,’s silly comments about an “oral teaching” aside (neither Socrates nor Jesus nor the Buddha wrote anything down after all, and yet G. happily drew on the teachings of all three), could the books themselves not serve as “transmission devices”?
There is always a tendency, when one has been exposed to a bad teacher, to want to separate the teacher from the ideas he taught. O. did this when he parted ways with G., deciding that G. was bad but that the ideas he conveyed, which O. had invested many years in and sacrificed a promising career in mathematics for, were good. (For more on this, and O in general I recommend “In Search of P.D. Ouspensky: The Genius in the Shadow of Gurdjieff,” by Gary Lachman.) One of the reasons that con artists remain free is that people hate to admit they have been conned. I would caution you from letting G. off the hook, however. His system is an innovative synthesis of a number of earlier philosophies and teachings, but little of it is his own invention and it would be silly to claim that he is offering anything new. O. had a very fine understanding of human psychology, as seen in the first book of his my class read (“Possible Evolution”), but again, he adds little that is new or revelatory.
For me, G’s system has numerous fatal flaws. A.E. Waite, the self-appointed historian of the esoteric and occult, attended one of O’s lectures in London but got up and left half way through. When asked for the reason for his reason for his abrupt departure he answered succinctly. “There is no love here,” he said. He is right, there is not, and I will not recommend G. to anyone for that reason alone. I gather from the comments on this blog that others have noticed that flaw in the system was greatly magnified in R and S’s hands. It led to emotional abuse.
G.'s system also lacks meaningful room for grace (in the Buddhist, Hindu and Christian senses), and is based on the bizarre idea that human beings are utterly lost without this knowledge, that without it the experiment that is existence on Earth will fail and human beings will be reduced to the level of ants (or maybe literally). That’s a nightmare of a fairy tale told to keep people dependant on the teachings and hold their wallets open for a teacher.
So, R. and S. weren’t doing anything directly connected through teachers to the work they claimed to be conveying. That tradition may not be worth anyone’s time anyway. Did people have genuine moments of spiritual awakening in the group? Heck yes, but those moments are available to anyone who seeks them in any number of ways. I don’t think God hordes them for the lucky few who find the "right path," but instead pays equally all those who labor in the field. You may have been taught that the importance of Jesus' sacrifce was the shedding of his blood, but I don't think that's right. The most important moment of teh cruxifiction was when Jesus agreed to under go it. It's not about how we seek the divine; it's about our willingness to try (in whatever way we do). Ask your local Freemason, “knock and the door shall be opened.”
As G. said you can learn a lot even from an ignorant teacher. The real danger is a teacher who knows what he is doing and works to your detriment. S. and R. hardly know what they are doing, but they are not motivated by anything apart from greed. I think they sincerely believe, usually, that they are carrying on an ancient and esoteric tradition, and doing good for the world. They aren’t, however, they are only picking pockets, and anyone seeking enlightenment would be better off knocking on other doors.
You said:
"I remember R. leaving the room suddenly one night in Belmont and returning looking dazed and ashen-faced. He claimed that he had suddenly had a moment of awakening, of self-remembering, a spiritual experience of not being asleep. He looked so shaken and moved that I believed that something extraordinary had occurred. Now, it may be that R. is a better actor than I give him credit for, but given the caliber of most of the actors associated with school I doubt he was convincingly faking it. Since R. is part of a broken pipeline, how did this occur? Dumb luck? The result of his efforts? Something else?"
Why assume that it was a spiritual experience to begin with? Maybe, since you say, he was "dazed and ashen-faced" and "shaken" - maybe, he had just gotten some bad news and didn't want to discuss it but knew people might notice his change of state?
Anonymous,*
Short answer: I had considered that R. faked the episode as a way of demonstrating his advanced abilities, and so justify his position as teacher, but not that he was "covering" for some other circumstance. It's an interesting idea, and you may be right. Thanks.
Longer answer: I was considering leaving when that moment happened and tried as best I could to discern Robert’s sincerity, as well as his motives. He solicited comments from the class, and selected around six of the numerous raised hands to respond before suddenly cutting the discussion short (at least that’s how I remember it—anyone else?)
On the one hand cutting things short like that struck me as manipulative. On the other, at times he really appeared to be searching for meaning in the responses, as if he wasn’t quite sure what had happened to him and was actually seeking our help. It was the only time I ever saw him, or any of the teachers, ask for the students help understanding something, or yield any power to us at all. If he was faking or covering, that seemed like a strange thing to do. Why involve us at all?
I was one of the folks invited to comment. I confess I teased him a little — I gave him a relevant and useful (I thought) insight, but in the form of an “esoteric” idea I thought he should have recognized instantly. He didn’t get the reference, or accuse me of mocking him and kick me out of the group (which I half-expected and would have welcomed). He just looked like my thought wasn’t helping and moved to the next person. He did appear to be someone who had undergone a weird experience and wasn’t sure what to make of it.
I’ve had moments of spiritual epiphany myself (only a couple of which happened when I was with the group and none of which happened when I was under the immediate influence of a teacher), and based on my own experience I thought maybe something holy had happened to R. that night.
Looking back on it now, though, my final thought is that there was no way for me to judge, or even guess at, what, if anything happened to R. The students never knew what was happening with the teachers. The power imbalance was too great and the teaching was designed, in part, to keep us constantly guessing, confused and off-balance intellectually and emotionally.
* i.e. the Anonymous whose comment immediately precedes this one. Keeping the authors of "Anonymous" comments sorted from one another gets confusing-- perhaps pseudonyms could be used . . .
Yes, you are right. Anonymous shall now be known as JellyBean.
I don't think R or S have any "advanced abilities" in the spiritual sense. They do have some advantages over their students in that the sustainers give a detailed report to them everytime they talk to a student. So you might think that they are very perceptive to intuit something about you but really, it's probably something they were told - something that you told someone else in confidence. And you can never really can speak to anyone honestly because you don't know if the person you talk to will repeat what you said to Robert or Sharon or may even bring it up in class.
No, the students have no idea what is happening with the teachers. They are all under tremendous pressure and each one reports to the one above them - kind of like a pyramid scheme. Robert reports to Sharon and the buck stops with Sharon. The younger teachers are as scared of their teachers and know as little about them as the younger students do. The worst part of it really is - who is married to whom and who WAS married to whom and who had whose child and who gave up which child for adoption to another member of the group, etc. It gets really nasty smelling. Sharon gets people to marry and divorce at her whim and they are all married and divorced to each other several times over.
They are all great actors. We were all convinced. And we wanted it all to be true. How right you are when you say that no one wants to admit that they have been conned. Many of us stayed for years beyond the point at which we wanted to leave because of not wanting to admit to ourselves and others that we had been duped. And the longer you have been there and the more you have invested in it (marriage, children, money, job, time), the harder it is to leave.
I hope that the people who are still in school are able to read this blog and the website and stop the justifications and lying. I hope that people are leaking like crazy and everyone is getting in touch with anyone they can who they knew in school and letting them have the oportunity to "think for themselves."
There was one line from the play "The Legend of Sharon Shashanovah" that I always remember:
"We are all suicides until someone saves us."
For so many years, I thought that I was the suicide and Sharon and Robert were saving me. Twisted like everything else. I am not a suicide. Sharon and Robert do not have the power to "save" anyone. I gave up my personal power to them. That power is in ourselves and in God.
Jellybean,
No, you're not a suicide, waiting helplessly for a teacher to save you. The first lies of all false teachers, manipulative frauds, or anyone who desires power over others are, "you need me. You need a teacher. You need a savior. You need a school." At one point the dictator in "V. for Vendetta" tells his minions to drum up lots of fear so that the people "remember how much they need us." So that old song goes.
I suspect that one of the reasons the teachers didn’t want me reading the Nag Hammadi texts was the worry that I would eventually stumble upon the place in the Gospel of Thomas where a disciple calls Jesus teacher and Jesus corrects him. “Jesus said, ‘I am not your teacher. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring that I have tended.’” Gos. Thom. 30 (5) (pg. 141) Imagine the questions reading that line would have raised.
You are not an utterly helpless suicide, although it’s a seductive image. It may be that Sharon thought of herself that way once, and found a way to exploit esoteric ideas to turn her inner grief and fear into outward cruelty, manipulation, and abuse. The first time most of our class met Sharon, she told the story of the lateral octave and humanity’s predicament. She got very upset when she was asked why the world was a “pain factory,” and why human beings had to struggle so hard to work their way back up the octave. Sharon blustered and fumbled and finally said, “that’s just the way it is—why is there a Big Bad Wolf? Why is there a Wizard of Oz?” The question was poorly phrased and dishonestly answered. A better question would have been, “Why are you so insistent on telling us how dire our situation is?” A better answer would have been, “Because I never want you to forget how much you need us.”
I hope that anyone who is being recruited reads these words and thinks twice about joining. I hope that others, who know nothing of school yet, read these stories and gain a little understanding about a destructive cult which may very well have impacted their lives, or the lives of people they love. Like you I hope most of all that folks who are still in school find this blog, and have the courage to join the discussion, or at least entertain the idea that the school’s teachers may not have their best interests at heart.
I think it is healthy that others have felt free to speak about these things openly. It is good to hear. My experience of Robert was that he genuinely was engaged in a struggle he believed in. I don’t think he believed he was involved in something to the detriment of others. In fact, I don’t believe any of the leaders admit that to themselves. But somewhere I believe they feel it and know it. But they don’t know what to do now having invested so much of themselves in it. They cannot admit to themselves, let alone to others, that it is a false game they are playing with real people’s lives. It comes across as real because people have the need to follow and allow the pretense of it to continue. Just like the Emperors’ new clothes, like Anonymous of the long blog describes. And the money it generates to run groups like these, and be at the head, is a temptation to stay justified in kidding themselves that they are helping people. In truth they are propping people up only to tear them down, and prop them up again in order to stay in control and keep the money going. Classic cult techniques. They are the Wizard of Oz behind that curtain. And what were Dorothy’s words?, “Shame on you!” And this blog is like the water thrown on the scarecrow to save him- that to everyone’s surprise and amazement melts the wicked witch of the West. Thanks to each and every one who has shared their thoughts here. And thank you * for creating this esoteric freedom site.
I also wanted to say to Hassein that your mention of that historian who visited an O meeting and left in the middle because “there was no love there” has really affected me. I have thought about it several times since I read it. It keeps coming up for me.
Everyone when they free themselves from their attachment to R and S and their groups comes out into a new light as a new awakening and I would imagine does what I did. Finds every book there is that they thought they were forbidden to read before, and starts reading. I started with Meetings with “Remarkable Men,” which had not been forbidden to me, but which I was finally free enough to read. I also read all 5 of Patrick Pattersons books, “Gurdjieff” by John Shirley, “Gurdjieff” by Jacob Needleman and Geroge Barker, “Maurice Nicoll” by Beryl Pogson, “Gurdjieff A Very Great Enigma” by J. G. Bennett, and many others. Among the most entertaining I think were “Struggle of the Magicians” by Patrick Patterson and his own sort of memoir about his own entrance into the Gurdjieff Foundation of New York in “Eating the I.” It was so much fun to read about the story of another persons experience entering a group like I had. Although the Foundation is quite different from our groups.
From what I have read, O himself was disheartened by all the work he had done at a certain point, because he saw that it had not worked for him, and he considered those who had listened to him and who continued to try to practice the work from the ideas he taught, fools. He thought all his followers were kidding themselves, just as he had been. His remarks about this are recorded in the Yale University Press Library, I believe. I have read that there are other documentaions there about O. I have never gone to look for myself, but I would like to. O’s groups were meeting in New Jersey towards the end of his life, and he left the U S and went back to England before he died, and he abandoned all that he had done up to that point. Hence Rodney Collin’s belief that new forms had to be constructed. I read a little bit about it at the very end of “In Search,” when I first came to my group, and I wanted very much to know more about it, but I never asked. Not that anyone would have been able to answer me, but how willing I was to just go along then! Just like O’s followers were. What is this need to “believe” that keeps us so afraid and far from ourselves?
Soulspark
Anyoymous said:
"My experience of Robert was that he genuinely was engaged in a struggle he believed in. I don’t think he believed he was involved in something to the detriment of others. In fact, I don’t believe any of the leaders admit that to themselves. But somewhere I believe they feel it and know it. [. . .] They cannot admit to themselves, let alone to others, that it is a false game they are playing with real people’s lives."
Quite true.
Slave chains have two ends. You can't restrict some else's freedom without limiting your own. Sharon may arrange the marriages and manipulate the families of group members, but in many ways she is less free than her students. We can reject the teachings and walk out the door. For the teachers, leaving is less of an option; the hooks of the group they created are in too deep. Without the group ex-students are free. Without the group the teachers' loose an addictive control over other people, a substantial source of income and much of their identity/sense of self and purpose.
(How strange that I am having these thoughts now, so long after I left. Thanks Anonymous for engaging my brain ).
Soulspark, After reading you comment it seems that teachers are tied to a post in some strange way. As we have been saying they become so invested in the job and can easily get caught there. Surely they start out with good intentions..don't you think? I love Rodney Collins vision of new forms and recreating the system. I recognize my ignorance here. What else was new that you learned from all your reading? Interested to hear. Hassin
"G.'s system also lacks meaningful room for grace (in the Buddhist, Hindu and Christian senses), and is based on the bizarre idea that human beings are utterly lost without this knowledge, that without it the experiment that is existence on Earth will fail and human beings will be reduced to the level of ants (or maybe literally). That’s a nightmare of a fairy tale told to keep people dependant on the teachings and hold their wallets open for a teacher."
Very well put Hassin.
Soulspark here. I agree that is it a nightmare of a fairy tale, and I remember always trying to figure that one out like there was a way to understand that idea that I just didn't get! So many things I was always trying to figure out all the time! Turns out the fruitlessness of my efforts were the result of a lack of serious exploration to begin with. I never seriously verified for myself what was being taught. Not seriously. I was a person then with a great need to believe in something. This need got me into a lot of trouble in the end. But I think in all my readings, to answer your question a little more, Hassin, the thing that stands out without me having to go back to refer to the material is the fact that G. really did not care about the sufferings of people under his wing very much. He was using them like so many “rats in a laboratory” -which he himself describes. And he seemed to take a little too much pleasure in the suffering of others. He was terribly amused by the impossible predicament people found themselves in. What a nasty bit of business that is, if you think about it; to entrust your life totally 100% to a person who teaches that suffering is the way, and then takes a kind of amusement in your suffering! A bit like Pogo and Lucky if you ask me. G also was an incredibly reckless driver and he put other peoples lives in danger by it. He had a family with a child in the car with him once (he was always driving between Paris and the Prierreu, 40 miles outside Paris, and he got out of the car on a steep hillside, forgot to put the car in park, and car started rolling off the mountain and someone lurched forward and was able to stop it, or he ran back and put the brakes on or something, but it was really, really close. He finally had an accident (not the first one that almost killed him) that in the end was responsible for his final illnesses, I believe. He was a stupidly reckless driver if you ask me. He drove way, way, way too fast, all the time. People refused to get in the car with him. He was somewhat suicidal in that way. Suicidal is not something a highly evolved person would be, in my opinion, - unless fasting for mankind, like Gandhi.
I mean it makes sense if suffering is the way, that a teacher would be pleased if you are suffering for your efforts because it means that you are evolving. But isn't that true in life anyway? What’s so different in school? Other than paying money to learn the same lessons of life. You suffer for what you gain, you pay the price, etc. I suffered a great deal with all my efforts in the work, and did I evolve in the work sense of it? I cannot say that I did or did not. And that was after many, many years of adherence. So there you are. It depends on what evolving is. We don’t know or agree on what we are talking about when it comes to the idea of evolving. And who holds the patent on that? I think whoever claims to is either a fool, a charlatan, or a two-bit operator.
It actually doesn’t take much to see flaws in the entire teaching about the idea of man number such and such, because no one can ever prove or verify it completely, to themselves or to others. “A lower level cannot see a higher level.” What a trap of an idea that one is, eh?
Living is volatile and ever changing. Nothing stays the same, and I know it is taught that things become crystallized etc, but time doesn't stop does it? And because of time, any number of man can always backslide at any minute and fall down. It's just not worth all the psychological investment to treat this idea like it's something to base one’s entire life on. I think it's a great “imagination” to do so. But then I'm on the other side of the fence, aren't I. Still, just to go back to what I read about in answer to your question Hassin, I think the book "Ladies of the Rope" is a really interesting look into some of the very finest work that G. did with people. At least what's written about it. He worked a lot with people on what he called their “animals.” He saw and assigned a specific animal to each individual and believed that people could really learn about themselves through their animal natures. And there are more than one animal involved, there are inner animals related to the body, and then other types of animals that he could see with certain people, and no one can replicate or do that kind of work like he did. I'm convinced of that after reading about it. It was his unique contribution to helping people, I think. It's fascinating material. If you're curious about G, I recommend that book in particular. Otherwise your own instincts on what to read are the best thing to go by. I remember the thrill of the freedom to read anything I wanted. That was one of the best things I got out of the work. Separating oneself from the chains of it is, without a doubt, the best part.
The two (one really) 12th street apts are being sold by douglas elliman assoc for between 3.5 and 4.o million dollars. The listing broker is interestingly enough, Ilsa kaye, who will pocket an additional 75-100K in commission for selling her mothers apartment
Wow!
Here is the link to the Douglas Elliman site:
http://www.prudentialelliman.com:80/Listings.aspx?ListingID=901793&rentalperiod=&SearchType=apartments&Region=NYC
$4.3 million...
Amazing.
I wonder why she is moving and where she will go? Any ideas?
Soulspark,
Actually, you are quoting me and not Hassin in your message of the 21st. I think either you or someone else confused me with Hassin a few messages back as well. I am reminded of Oscar Wilde, when someone heard one of his lines and toild him "I wish I had said that," responded "Oh, you will, Howard, you will." Anyrate, I don't know Hassin (although I did briefly consider using "Hassan i Sabbath" as a psuedonym) and he hasn't yet sued me for plagarism or identity theft, so I suppose all is well. Ironic that I was the one who suggested psuedonymns.
I have no time for my usual long winded replies at the moment, but you are quite right abut G.'s recklessness. He had a fairly famous actress in his school outside Paris at one point who was quite ill. G. decreed that the best thing for her would be to sleep outside on the roof. She obeyed for a lengthy period, contracted pneumonia and eventually died. One of the students in my class used the fact of her being a student of G.'s as evidence that his system really did attract the brightest and the best, and true artists. I had to bite my tongue.
A good outline of G.'s recklessness can be found in a book by an arch-skeptic called "Madame Blavatsky's Baboon: A History of the Mystics, Mediums, and Misfits Who Brought Spiritualism to America," by Peter Washington. He touches only briefly on G. and O. as he focuses more on Theosophy, but he makes some interesting points.
Your posting makes s number of interesting points itself that I will try to address in a later response.
Peace,
Albert Arme (not, alas, Hassin)
-- "... and you must be Groucho Marx!"
-- "Well if I must, I must, but I'd rather be Erol Flynn."
sorry albert arme, I did not mean to mix up your name and reference with hassin. My apologies and thank you for the correction. Henceforth soulspark shall be called xram ohcuorg.
I understand better now why my friends who are still there may not be able to help themselves, and why they won't talk to me when we cross paths. This summer I heard a presentation from an academic who studied successful tools in sales, marketing, and advertising. His research showed that people WILL act when they have something important to lose, and success in that arena includes pointing out what you WILL lose by not purchasing X. Interestingly, people MIGHT act when they have something to gain and they might not.
Now think about our friends, who fear LOSING the opportunity to "grow a soul." That fear grips their understanding. It's emotional, psychological, powerful. That fear manages their actions, and its only human nature.
I remain grateful that I didn't stay a minute longer than I did, and I am no longer bothered by the abrupt departure anymore.
That fear that anonymous speaks of is a very clear observation and perception in my experience. My question is how did I come to live and act dictated by it? Is it true that the opportunity of developing a soul is given out or is it taken by the ones that really want it. Is instruction of some kind required? Is there right fear of blowing chances? I was afraid to leave for too long, afraid to speak up too often, afraid to I would lose my chance so I kept paying $ and time. I am really wondering if I have gained anything in the soul department.
It is clear that there was a kind of covetousness in the teachers. As if only Sharon had any connection with higher reasoning. This worked to keep students from making there own soul or developing there own sense of higher order,growing ones own heart and wisdom there are so many way to say it. Directions are necessary but the controlling is, to the extent that we were, deadning. Then fear arises. Afterall I supose we are all lost sheep looking for a shepard.
I recently had two experiences that were interesting. I had a chance to run into and speak with two different people from past group connections, one that was free to speak, and one that was not. I spoke with both because they actually spoke to me first. The one that was most definitely no longer buying in or seeing themselves as connected was free to speak with me in a way that we had never spoken before. It was like we were able to speak normally, without imposed withholdings, for the very first time. Such a pleasure. The other not so. The other it was just like before only with more silent questions on both our parts. The unspoken was the loudest language going on. And all I could do there was realize that while I no longer was unfree to speak, I could do absolutely nothing about their mode of censure. Their censure came across as automatic and so ingrained and absolutely recognizable to me. I saw the fear in myself, because this was a person whom for me was "elder" in the past, and all the old automatic issues and silent censures and wonderings were going on while at the same time, since I no longer give credence to that psychological game, I was free and didn't care. But I suppose on second thought, not as free as I wished. Because I tailored everything I said to specifically avoid talking about anything sensitive or related to the past for both our sakes. We talked only about current job issues and life events. Nothing about school or the work, and actually that is not much different than the way it always was before! But the imposed withholdings added such a weight! A weight I was willing to carry once upon a time. What I see now is that I censure all the time in probably about the way everyone does in general about everything we say and think. But the imposition to censure even more that is imposed from the work on top of that is just too much. Don't we all do that enough as it is? Isn't that why we buy into it so easily under the influence of school? It makes us feel like we have control to deliberately be in a work censure mode all the time when we are in school. It's all about imagining we are somehow more ahead of the game than people in 'life' by keeping our mouths shut all the time. But what greatness has come out of the school we put so much faith into once upon a time? Who and where are the great evolved beings who have been able to have such a tremendous civilizing influence on humanity? Whomever they are they cannot speak up, or speak without fear of spilling some imaginary beans and giving away secrets that sink ships. I think there is a delicate balance between speaking and silence and it's an art that one must be free to explore and experience on an individual basis. Why is the freedom of speech one of the first amendment rights? What is wrong with life's conglomerate lessons that we have to make them less than, and impoverished compared to the great teachings of the work? Because in school we all think that "life out there" is what one needs to secretely separate from while pretending to be in it. As if people can do that without imagination. It's too much of a fool's errand to buy into anymore. OK I'll stop talking now. Till later, xram ohcuorg.
My experience of these teachers was contrary to what most of you are saying.
The school is a real challenge, there is no doubt about that. Teaching methods are unorthodox and extreme compared to what we're used to in the west.
I did see that it had the ability to change people for the better.
I did see and experience "true abilities" of the teachers.
I did learn things that helped me develop.
I'm sorry to hear that the experiences of some registered with them in a negative way.
Despite the hardship and challenge of school I hope that all of you were still able to take away a few grains of knowledge that did affect your life in a positive way.
The school is definitely not for everyone. It wasn't for me on a long term basis but I value the time that I did spend there. I came away with a few golden principles that I never would have found elsewhere.
The school gave me enough to ponder for the rest of this lifetime and some fixed stars to steer by.
I hope that some of you with troubled recollections might still be able to salvage at least a little good from the experience.
There are many people who felt that being in school was the right thing for them; they still think that the teachers are "higher" beings and have special knowledge and that they grew their being considerably and that most of their experiences were positive.
I have spoken to a number of people who felt that way for a long time after they left school but in many cases their feelings have changed after being out for awhile, seeing what the world really has to offer, making new friendships, speaking about their experience and feeling the bonds to school loosen and dissolve.
We were taught to think a certain way. We were taught to be grateful for our teachers and all of our experiences in school. We were taught that school was the only "real" way for those of us who choose to live in life. We were taught that we owed Sharon everything. We were taught not to talk about anything to do with school with anyone ever. We were taught that Sharon knew best. We were told that there was a difference between a suggestion and an instruction. We were always taught that school was never to blame for anything. We were taught that it was never a question of time or money...
There are many things about school that I remember fondly - mostly my friendships and the sense of community. Yes, it was a group composed of mostly very bright, very interesting people and their company was wonderful. I made some very dear life-long friends and I still value their friendships.
I have found that with some real distance and separation from school, really looking at myself "in the round" 360 degrees, some of the buffers have come down - some with a shout and some with a whimper. I find now that the groups of "I's" that defended certain things about school did so because they could not admit the shame and the hurt that came with finding out about the truth. Was Adolph Hitler a fun guy at parties? I'm sure he had some real human moments but that doesn't excuse or rectify everything else that he was responsible for. I was also taught in school: "do not fear to hate the odious."
The truth of the situation is devastating to really look at and take in. That is why a lot of us stay for so long - easier to stay and justify it all than have to face the pain of the truth. It's not so easy to say: "Yes, I did these things. I stayed and watched my friends being abused and did nothing to stop it. I allowed others to coerce me into doing certain things I did not want to." Easier to say that it was a great party with a lot of jokes. For some of us who were in so deep that we were bound to school by our spouses and children and jobs, it was almost impossible to leave school and potentially lose husband, wife, children, money, career, etc. So many people end up having no other life beyond school so it becomes too hard to leave and start over and make new friends and new lives. The deeper you are in, the harder you justify being there. Yes, of course, there were people who hung around for a few years and never got really deeply drawn in - in those cases, yes, it is easy to say that it was great while it lasted and now it is over.
School does not have a monopoloy on the ideas. We were taught that if ideas were real then they showed up in all of the major religions and philosophies. Gurdjieff really cobbled together a lot of ideas that did not begin with him. The ideas are out there for anyone to use and work on. The ideas are out there in many forms.
When I hear the stories about physical and sexual abuse, the stories about people giving up children for adoption to other members of the group, the stories about children who do not know the truth of their parentage, the stories about large sums of money given to the teachers, the stories about people being told to marry and divorce, the stories about the men and women who were told that they were not homosexual and forced to change their sexual preference and marry and have children, the stories about deep depressions, suicide attempts, deep psychic pain - I can't condone anything that that went on. Because some people don't get killed in a war, doesn't make it right or just. Because I wasn't the one who got beaten up or raped, doesn't mean it is OK for these people to do things like that.
When you start to hear the stories and see the human wreckage that Sharon and Robert and Alex have left in their wake all for their monetary gain, power, manipulation and control - none of it can be justified. I think that many of us are so overcome with shame that we really can't look at what happened and see it for what it was. I was overcome by such shame for a long time - it prevented me from speaking or listening to others. It kept me locked in silence and lies and hate. It enhanced my mechanicality. I am not totally free yet but that is the path I am now choosing to travel.
I wish you all well.
There is an idea that one must separate the message from the messenger. And at the same time -- examine the messenger carefully! How interesting it is that I failed to do this when I came to "school." How interesting that I did not trust my instinctive dislike of Robert, that I sat on my doubts of his knowledge, level of being or sincerity. How well my own fear and guilt was used against my own conscience!
Is there a day since leaving when I don't make efforts to work on myself? - not provable but doubtful. Am I less awake now? doubtful - in fact I feel more alive than I have in years - only the mirror tells me that I am decades older than when I started.
I haven't spoken in depth with anyone who is/was at "School" without hearing an affirmation for the power, goodness, effectiveness and usefulness of the IDEAS - which certainly are to be found in many places, many of them surprising. Try reading some of the many books by Z'ev Ben Shimon Halevi. How often in reading novels, I have been delighted to come across a turn of phrase and think "There's someone who knows something and they are putting it out there!" I no longer think they must have contacted a school - because there are too many of them and too few of Sharon & Robert's ilk - thank God. I still wonder who taught or influenced Madeleine L'Engle, Dianna Wynne Jones, Diane Duane, or C.S. Lewis, for just a few examples from popular culture. And there are many more humans alive today who are pouring their own inner work into the world - not for power or money but because it is a good thing!
What has become clear is that the "teachers" also have power - which we ourselves gave to them in abdicating sovereignty over our own lives; that the "teachers" effectively used the ideas for their own ends and that they are NOT working for the Good - either of humanity nor for their students.
What is particularly odious is their use of legal threats to this site and individuals who were their own students. In my right mind and heart I cannot imagine a real teacher of truth ever turning on a student with violence of this nature. I CAN imagine a Jesus, a Buddha, or a Socrates, seeking out student who was speaking negatively about his school -- in order to heal the breach, to help the student find the source of pain that was causing it. The fact is, these "teachers" do not care about people who leave - they have been sufficiently raped - of their time, $$$ and talents, and after all , there is always new blood to be drunk.
As I write this, and observe the emotions, I realize that there are still fresh scars, but also there is the legacy of my own inner work and the friendship of fellow students. I take heart from knowing that in finding and staying with this particular "school", something ancient, real and deep in me was speaking and I will not squash that wish and nor cease making efforts for my own development.
I hope others of you who are still "in" will find the courage to strike out on your own path - and allow your own higher selves to question and find answers from Greater Mind - that level of the universe which is our birthright - and we all have had moments of illumination and delight from such contact. It is possible without "school". Come - after all what are all the great myths and fairy tales telling us? Your path is individual and there is help on the way - but never once do I recall that these stories land the hero or heroine in a School at the happy ending. They find True Love, they are granted their kingdom. These are the real happy endings.
In-a-Mirror.
Well, I was going to leave some lengthy, well thought out piece here, but, what the heck - my simple impressions:
I was in School about 30 years ago for about 5 years.
Bob was one of my, and my wife's, best friends and was "godfather" to my oldest child.
Sharon and Alex were both interesting people with whom I had a teacher/student relationship and, occasionally, a friendly mentor relationship.
It was very exciting and interesting to be in School back then with the Theater of All Possibilities; the end of San Francisco; the move to Boston; the plays in New York; and the international tour of those plays.
I made life long friendships and met and married my wife and had a beautiful son - all while in School.
After my wife and I left School (at different times - we were separated) and got back together, we had more beautiful children and used the ideas of the Work to further our own lives.
Our children are pretty much grown up now and we have one set of grand children.
We have used the ideas of the Work, off and on, over the years to pursue our own religions and to fashion a life based on spiritual values, much of which we learned in School.
We, and our children, are Orthodox Jews, so we have other teachers now and we study other ideas.
I do not believe that Mr. Gurdjieff or Bob or Alex or Sharon were in anyway "super" people or great gurus or whatever the current mode is in describing these folks.
We, and they, are all deeply flawed human beings and, as seemed to be the case in Georges Gurdjieff's later life, Sharon and Alex and even Bob, all appear to have "identified" deeply with their particular flaws and even "crytalized" within them - as we all do as we get older.
It's a shame, but that's Life.
I think their "School" can be useful for anyone who needs it. And, for those that don't, they should find what they do need.
Blaming Bob or Sharon for your weeny, messed up life is not useful.
Or, so I was taught in School, long ago....
:)
;)
Moishe -
I would have preferred that "lengthy, well-thought piece" that you mentioned, rather than the usual superiority and belittling.
Ah, Moishe...
Well, first of all I don't have a weeny messed up life and I never said that I did. In fact, my life and the lives of those in my family have really blossomed in the last few years and I have never been happier or felt more alive.
Second of all, we were all taught that blame is BAD. There are so many mechanical reactions still ingrained in all of us. I can't imagine that anyone would argue with me if I blamed Adolph Hitler for killing 6 million jews. Blame can be useful in assigning responsibility.
Everyone in school was always so fond of dictionary definitions. Look up "blame" and you find:
1. To hold responsible.
2. To find fault with; censure.
3. To place responsibility for (something): blamed the crisis on poor planning.
n. The state of being responsible for a fault or error; culpability.
Censure; condemnation.
Interesting. There really is not anything wrong or negative about blame. It's really about calling a spade a spade. It's about telling the truth. I find Alex, Sharon and Robert responsible for a number of things and I condemn them for those things, such as:
emotional and physical abuse, sexual abuse, asking students for large sums of money for their own personal gain, taking advantage of people in the name of the "Good", asking people to give up children for adoption to other members of the group, asking people to do things that are illegal or immoral, children who do not know the truth of their parentage, telling people whom to marry and divorce, telling men and women that they were not homosexual and convincing them to change their sexual preference and marry and have children, psychiatric hospitalizations, depressions and giving out false hope.
You were in school 30 years ago and I dare say that sometimes distance makes us fonder of things than we were at the time. That was a long time ago. It's interesting to me that after 30 years you still feel that you need to engage so deeply in this dialogue. I wonder why you are still so interested in it. And interested, it seems, in defending Sharon, Alex and Robert - if it was so great, why don't you just go back to school and then you would be sworn not to look at the internet and you wouldn't have to read this.
In any case, I don't think the issue is blame but the issue is responsibility. I think Sharon and Alex and Robert need to take responsibility for what they have done. And you (and I) need to be responsible for what we have done. Did you ever sit in class and watch a fellow student be abused either physically or emotionally and not say a word to stop it? Would you have drank the Kool-Aid if they asked you to?
Also you say that "Bob" is one of your oldest friends and the "godfather" to your eldest child. When was the last time you spoke to "Bob"? When was the last time you saw him? 30 years ago? When was the last time your child received a gift or a card or a phonecall from their "godfather"? I doubt ever because I am in the same situation with Robert as godfather to one of my children and he hasn't seen or done anything for them in years. I am also sure that if you met Robert (we never called him Bob) on the street, he would shun you just like he shuns the rest of us who have left school. He would pretend that he didn't know you and has never known you. You would be like the dust under his feet.
I blame them for the wrong they have done. I wish I could stop them from hurting anyone else. I do not wish them any harm - I try not to be on that level. I wish them well. I wish you all well.
I applaud everyone's contributions. I do have one comment, though, and I voice it as a concern: I wonder how useful it is to use familiar terms and ideas learned "there and then" on this blog "here," especially if the purpose for many who are posting is to to move on, heal, or understand what transpired when you were involved.
Wouldn't it be more effective to level the field by abstaining from using any "Work" terms at all and view Alex, Sharon , Robert, and the others using ones own language and understanding, not "theirs"? For instance, all three clearly manifest substance abuse problems, all three have condoned violence. I know this from up close and personal experience. In either case their actions and habits were explained away by manipulating ideas like higher hydrogens, lower not understanding higher, and so on. And of course all stood by and allowed the sh*t to happen without uttering a peep. That in retrospect was "wrong" and regrettable, but that should not dilute the fact that what they did and continue to do is "wronger." What is stopping anybody from saying that these people are just f*cked up, and always have been? That they're kooks and reprobates? I mean, given all the cult stuff that is out there, I have come to realize that there is nothing particularly special about these small-fry, second-tier cult leaders, but they have honed their scam to a pretty fine art.
That is why it is so tough to get past them and debunk their crap. The "Ideas"-- whether genuinely valid and of value to you or not-- that they co-opted are effective enough to act as a virus on ones thinking. In my opinion the only cure for this is to not contend with them on their terms, both literally and figuratively.
Of course it is likely that many bloggers have really gotten so far away from those damaging experiences that they feel free to use these terms... but it is a question of how many truly have or to what degree they have.
Just be careful with these "trigger" words is all I am saying. Thanks for reading this.
I do believe that Jellybean is being a tad unfair...
"JellyBean said...
Well, first of all I don't have a weeny messed up life and I never said that I did...."
I apologize. It was meant to be humorous. I thought that was self-evident.
"....Interesting. There really is not anything wrong or negative about blame. It's really about calling a spade a spade. It's about telling the truth. I find Alex, Sharon and Robert responsible for a number of things and I condemn them for those things, such as:
emotional and physical abuse, sexual abuse, asking students for large sums of money for their own personal gain, taking advantage of people in the name of the "Good", asking people to give up children for adoption to other members of the group, asking people to do things that are illegal or immoral, children who do not know the truth of their parentage, telling people whom to marry and divorce, telling men and women that they were not homosexual and convincing them to change their sexual preference and marry and have children, psychiatric hospitalizations, depressions and giving out false hope..."
The above experiences were not my experiences while I was in School.
To wit:
"emotional and physical abuse, sexual abuse," - Nope.
"asking students for large sums of money for their own personal gain," - Perhaps. I did not see it that way. And, I still don't. Unless I want to include my natural resentment at my local Town; County; State; and Federal Governments for stealing large sums of money from me for their personal gain. I felt far happier giving money to School than I do getting royally ripped off by those in the government who believe that I am obligated to pay them in order for them to create some worthless thing that they believe is the best thing for the citizens to do...
"taking advantage of people in the name of the "Good"," - Not in my experience.
"asking people to give up children for adoption to other members of the group," - Not in my experience.
"asking people to do things that are illegal" - Again, perhaps. Then again, copying video tapes is still illegal. One's observance of Law is a gray area.
"or immoral," - Not in my experience.
"children who do not know the truth of their parentage," - How odd. Not in my experience.
"telling people whom to marry and divorce," - Yeah, I believe that one. Sharon did not think that my wife and I of 28 years should have gotten married. And, she recommended that we separate when we were in School. And, as soon as we got kicked out of School, we got back together. So, yes, I do believe they were guilty of that particular crime.
"telling men and women that they were not homosexual and convincing them to change their sexual preference and marry and have children," - Well, now... That does not sound criminal to me, but perhaps I have a different viewpoint as to what is "immoral," than do you.
"psychiatric hospitalizations, depressions and giving out false hope..." - Not in my experience. Giving out false hope? What an odd thing to accuse someone of...
"You were in school 30 years ago and I dare say that sometimes distance makes us fonder of things than we were at the time. That was a long time ago. It's interesting to me that after 30 years you still feel that you need to engage so deeply in this dialogue.
I wonder why you are still so interested in it. And interested, it seems, in defending Sharon, Alex and Robert - if it was so great, why don't you just go back to school and then you would be sworn not to look at the internet and you wouldn't have to read this." - As I pointed out, School was an integral part of my Life back then and both my wife and I have used the ideas of the Work at various times to pursue our own lives. I will always love Maurice Nicoll and Rodney Collins. Even when I vehemently disagree with their particular perceptions. I would have never read some of the amazing thoughts and perceptions that I still hold dear if it were not for the Work.
And, "Ashiata Shiemash" specifically addressed me in the Rickross World regarding this blog.
And, I like to exchange ideas. I do so with great regularity on other forums.
And, I like to find out what SharonAlexBob, etc., are doing nowadays, so I check in from time to time. As I noted, I am somewhat dismayed at how they appear to have solidified into some kind of rote cultic mind frame. It's too bad.
I find your hostility to my interest a tad odd. I also look up people that I knew in high school from time to time. And even write them... Genealogical relations too! Interesting? Whatever...
"In any case, I don't think the issue is blame but the issue is responsibility. I think Sharon and Alex and Robert need to take responsibility for what they have done. And you (and I) need to be responsible for what we have done. Did you ever sit in class and watch a fellow student be abused either physically or emotionally and not say a word to stop it? Would you have drank the Kool-Aid if they asked you to?"
Nope. As a matter of fact, we discussed the Kool-Aid in great depth for about a month in San Francisco when Alex and Sharon were fleeing and School was breaking up there. Specifically in regards to Jim Jones; abuse; brain washing; and cults.
Personally, I decided that I had free will. (Which, by the way, occasionally pissed off Alex and even Bob when I expressed my particular opinions regarding their particular focus at any given time...)
"Also you say that "Bob" is one of your oldest friends and the "godfather" to your eldest child."
No, I wrote that Bob was one of my wife and I's best friends back then. And, I wrote that he was "godfather" to my eldest son because trying to explain what a "sandek" is and the significance it had then and that it has now is bit too esoteric for this particular conversation.
Bob is not one of my oldest friends.
"When was the last time you spoke to "Bob"? When was the last time you saw him? 30 years ago?"
About 25 years ago. I spoke to him on a business related matter. (I ran a moving company). I managed to piss him off at the time for not complying with a business related matter to his satisfaction.
C'est la vie.
"When was the last time your child received a gift or a card or a phonecall from their "godfather"? I doubt ever because I am in the same situation with Robert as godfather to one of my children and he hasn't seen or done anything for them in years."
Again, I misstated the relationship. I apologize.
"I am also sure that if you met Robert (we never called him Bob) on the street, he would shun you just like he shuns the rest of us who have left school. He would pretend that he didn't know you and has never known you. You would be like the dust under his feet."
Perhaps. I don't know. It is not particularly relevant to me. But, I suspect that you are incorrect. Then again, as I wrote before, based on the input of you all, he seem to have crystallized in an unpleasant manner...
I have responded because I believe you are mis-characterizing both my interest and my previous response.
Those that I knew and loved 30 years ago do indeed seemed to have morphed into something that I would not love today.
But, that was not my experience 30 years ago.
What Moishe3 is saying is that things were not so bad 30 years ago-- in fact they were pretty good-- and that he values the experience he had and he cherishes the memories.
However, he does indeed acknowledge that, given the dark testimonials of people who have been involved more recently, that his former teachers and friends must have changed for the worse and that they are essentially two different sets of people. Hence Moishe3 implies that he is speaking of two different situations. Why he does not state this outright is a question that he himself might be able to answer if he feels like it.
I guess the only thing that remains to be said is that-- since the two situations are essentially different-- Moishe3's contributions on the matter are irrelevant and not of any real use save only to himself or some part of himself.
It seems an excellent, obvious, and FAIR question-- why bother even to make a contribution, Moishe3? Hint: it has to do with two different kinds of "talking." Remember that one?
I contribute because I was invited to do so.
I believe I missed the "talking" point. Sincere and Insincere? Repetition of Words and Phrases?
I could probably come up with more, but I suspect that you are writing about a concept that I cannot currently recall.
And, the "dark testimonials" regarding Alex at least, existed long before I joined School. They were and are, simply not my particular experience.
Sometimes I wonder if Moishe is a pseudonym for Robert or someone else in school...
Everyone has to make their own understanding about what has happened in our lives. For better or worse I spent alot of years around the mentioned beings hoping for a glimpse of higher worlds and knowledge. I don't regret the time spent. I wonder how I would react if I met the group again in another go round. Would I still be open to higher influence? Could I make a distinction between the message and the messenger? Would I repeat the same mistakes and allow things to unfold with out objecting? I find all the bloggers' comments very interesting and helpful and it helps me to see more dimentions of myself. We must always be on guard for negativity and it's endless forms to see clearly. Hate to sound preachie...H
"Invited" to do so, Moishe? An anonymous blog site that "welcomes comments" free of retribution, for the sake of the "truth"-- THIS is what you consider being "invited"? Wow, I guess for you being greeted by the concierge at the Bismarck Hilton would be like meeting St. Peter at the Pearly Gates!
Look, you are entitled to make your contributions anywhere as you flit about the Internet, but shouldn't you adopt the standard of being RELEVANT with your contributions? I'll ask the question again: How does saying "that was not my experience" relevant or useful to those who said it WAS in fact their experience? How is implying "get a life" to those who were in fact hurt in some way actually "helpful"? Here's a question worth pondering: How do your contributions relate to the attribute of "lovingkindness"?
Or, to put the matter into terms everybody here (except you) seems to understand: How are your contributions NOT "unnecessary talking"?
""Invited" to do so, Moishe? An anonymous blog site that "welcomes comments" free of retribution, for the sake of the "truth"-- THIS is what you consider being "invited"?"
No. It was a bit more direct than that.
"Look, you are entitled to make your contributions anywhere as you flit about the Internet, but shouldn't you adopt the standard of being RELEVANT with your contributions?"
If I choose to share my experiences, which I have, why is that irrelevant?
I may choose to share more of my particular experiences from time to time, as I recall them, or the mood strikes me. Would that also be irrelevant?
I do find your hostility a bit overblown in light of the fact that both this blog and the estoricfreedom website specifically invite all people to share whatever experiences they had, be they good, bad or indifferent.
Although, I must admit, you offer impetus for dialog.
"I'll ask the question again: How does saying "that was not my experience" relevant or useful to those who said it WAS in fact their experience?"
I don't know. It apparently sets off something in you.
My purpose was not to "be useful." My purpose was to reminisce about what I found attractive or useful vis a vis School - in light of opinions that have been generally expressed on how bad School was or is.
I do not understand why people do not simply take the good, reject the bad and move on.
I found the ideas of the Work tremendously exciting and useful. I found their application via Sharon and Alex's School also exciting and useful.
I never found Sharon or Alex or Bob or Fred or any older students, including myself for the brief time where I was the one responsible for running things, to be all wise or all knowing or all anything. As I noted, in spite of having what I considered a close friendship with Bob, I managed to piss him off many times by not being "the student" that he apparently expected me to be - sometimes. Big whoop. Everyone in the School had different relationships with everyone else.
Alex was the only one that really had a hard time with not being acknowledged as some kind of Super Guy and I observed that his relationship with Sharon (his marriage) and with Bob and Fred and others, all suffered from it.
As far as I know, it appears that he is no longer associated with the others.
They're just people. And, they are not "the Work." Neither was Georges Gurdjieff, for that matter. We are all just conduits for what we know and who we are.
That's all.
"How is implying "get a life" to those who were in fact hurt in some way actually "helpful"?"
Because of the above.
If it's not helpful, then don't.
I have found it to be useless and self destructive to blame anything on anyone else other than myself or G-d.
To blame those ordinary human beings involved with School for my problems or your problems seems pointless and self defeating.
" Here's a question worth pondering: How do your contributions relate to the attribute of "lovingkindness"?"
Beats the hell out of me. Is that something I should be concerned about?
"Or, to put the matter into terms everybody here (except you) seems to understand: How are your contributions NOT "unnecessary talking"?"
Again, should I care?
I do a great deal of talking. Much of it is probably unnecessary, but I enjoy it and, for the most part, it would appear that those I talk to (or, in the case of the internet, write to) also enjoy it.
I do not find it particularly useful or relevant to dwell on the vocabulary of the Work. It does not serve me to think in one set of terms when the rest of the world thinks in other sets of terms.
Some things I do retain because they are useful to me. But I don't discuss them with other people who wouldn't have a clue as to what I was talking about.
It would be similar to writing about the importance of kavannah in davening and learning and the idea that perhaps even harmless past times such as this are narashkeit and not very useful.
Why would I want to do such a thing?
Moishe not for nothing but that last post had a real gobbledy-gooky vibe to it. You're not becoming unsettled I hope.
The point that the founders of the blog made is clear: "We are only interested in the truth. We are only interested in becoming truly free and supporting our friends in their efforts to become loving and compassionate men and women on their journeys to discover the meaning and purpose of their lives."
I don't see how what you have felt free to share or have "been directly invited" (how does that work by the way?) to contribute has this directive in mind. At all.
There is a difference between facts and the truth, isn't there Moishe? I mean, if you say that you never experienced any real harm thirty years back, then that is a fact that pertains to you and you alone. How does this fact have any bearing on the fact that many have had the opposite experience? What does it have to do with the truth that they seek? Maybe you aren't seeking the truth-- maybe you're too old and have given up. That's OK, Moishe. Many people of a certain age become sentimental and switch from truth-seeking to "reminiscing."
Here is a puzzler: I asked you
"I'll ask the question again: How does saying "that was not my experience" relevant or useful to those who said it WAS in fact their experience?"
You responded to me
"I don't know. It apparently sets off something in you.
My purpose was not to "be useful." My purpose was to reminisce about what I found attractive or useful vis a vis School - in light of opinions that have been generally expressed on how bad School was or is."
So in addition to becoming a little testy at being pressed for an answer, you in fact admit that you don't know how your contributions are relevant. OK, that's good to know. And you add that you are not interested in being useful. OK that is also really good to know. And you enjoy reminiscing. OK that's great to know too. You also demote other people's experiences to mere "opinions" whereas your experience maintians its non-subjective factualness. OK that is really REALLY good to know. You believe all these statements "set off something in me". Well maybe now that you have had your M.O. distilled down to its essence you can see how another person might regard your posts with some... skepticism.
You only assert the good you experienced without showing an iota of sympathy for what others experienced as the bad. But as you stated clearly-- you are not interested in being useful. Great and I mean GREAT to know!
But keep posting, Moishe-- as if anybody in her right mind would stop such a force for good as yourself. Seriuosly though... if anything, others will help you get to the truth of your being-- free of charge. Short of that, the insightful people who blog here have a certain knack and will eventually figure out what you're about in spite of yourself.
Mere words....
“When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.” Lewis Carroll
Could we start again, please? I apologize, but I left the room for a while there and would like to jump back in the conversation a bit and reference an older post. Catching up with all of the posts a few minutes ago, Anonymous 1’s comments on using work terms grabbed me.
Words entangle us. Robert knew it, and I suspect that’s why he spoke with passion about the need to build a work language so that everyone used terms with specifically construed definitions. When we used words like “hydrogens” or terms like “self remembering” we all had rather specific definitions in our heads. Robert claimed this system would help us understand one another better, but I am amazed, looking back, that none of us noticed the obvious, that all of the definitions, all of the mutually agreed upon meanings of the words we used had been given to us by the teachers. Sharon and Robert chose what the words meant, and so while “receiving help” meant, for us, “receiving help,” in practice it meant being verbally assaulted or humiliated
Perhaps less obviously, when we accepted the definition of “self remembering” as a positive and powerful spiritual epiphany, it becomes easy to conclude that such an epiphany is something to strive for, and easy, since you “know” little about “self remembering” except that it is good and desirable, to place a lot of faith in someone, anyone who promises that he can have such moments on a regular basis.
In many Native American traditions it is Coyote, the Trickster, who invents language. He also invents fishing with a hook and line. That dual role makes sense. Words can be like fish hooks -- simple, deceptive, and intractable traps. Mind you, a particularly clever fish can often find a way to defeat the trap, even to the detriment of whoever laid it. A harpooned whale (and what is a harpoon but a spear with a hook?) can dive deep enough to sink the boat from which the harpoon was thrown or follow the line back to the boat and ram it. I suspect we can use the work terms to our advantage, as long as we are aware that we are using them and work carefully to redefine them where necessary. At the least we should remind each other that even if the bait entices, there is a hook underneath it still.
Albert Arme
The end of anonymity (sort of).
I’ve noticed in myself a marked tendency to treat the leaders of the group with an odd sort of reverence. I actually referred to them only by the first initial of their names in my first post here, as if Sharon, Robert and the rest were important enough that everyone would immediately know who I was talking about, as if I was still obligated to keep their identities secret. I sincerely believe that Robert and Sharon were flim flam artists pedaling ideas they barely understood to a roomful of (in my case) lonely, anxious students hungry for meaningful spiritual sustenance, and yet I still find it hard to be completely free of them, as I lapse backwards into old habits that are born, largely, of fear. Theirs was a cheap con, but an effective one.
I suspect I choose to remain more or less anonymous for the same reason; part of me is frightened to admit I was conned by these guys and part of me fears retaliation. The threatened lawsuit against this site gives force to that second fear, and warrants a little prudence.
But I prefer to live with less fear. If anyone wishes to contact me outside of this forum please shoot me an e-mail at 23517@anonmail.de.
---
Albert Arme
Albert you have made some excellent points here but it is their sincerity that is their most valuable aspect. Given that, I would like to say a couple of things to you. First, a slightly more than casual glance at the Rick Ross website will lead any of us to the conclusion that our situation was certainly not unique and hence not exceptional. It's an important conclusion because it serves to reduce the retro-projected importance of these alleged higher beings, and more crucially it also removes any notion of ONESELF being particularly important-- self-importance, that is. It is a trap that one must be careful to not fall into, and I am saying this to nobody in particular save to whom it applies. It does not seem to apply to you but it might very well apply to several others who are otherwise people of good will like yourself.
The other point that should be made is the importance of questioning the validity of the notion of self-remembering. It is the pivot point upon which most everything else hinges. I'm interested to know what you make of the idea-- is it valid in and of itself, was it valid in the way it was imparted by your "teachers," and your experiences of it-- were they genuine.
If you do not wish to address this I completely understand.
Anonymous 1,
Those are two good topics. I am happy to address both, actually, although I don’t know if I really have anything interesting to say, particularly on the first.
To your first point: I often think that Robert and Sharon’s teachings on egotism and self importance may be the best examples of how potentially useful ideas were put to devious ends. Humility, or a lack of self importance, is a major part of nearly every religious system ever, and quite a few philosophies to boot (to my knowledge only Alistaire Crowley and Anton LaVey speak out against it, and Crowley, bless his heart, was harder to read even than Gurdjieff -- he’s delightful that way). For example, Gurdjieff focused on rididng oneself of self-importance a great deal, and many people thought it was the best part of his system. I assume you know that he lifted the idea more or less completely from Buddhist teachings? He also twisted it around quite a bit. Many Buddhists focus on the abandonment of ego as a way of reaching nirvana. Nirvana is a state of perfect nothingness which is shattered if you drag your ego with you. Other Buddhists (echoing Persian teachings) focus on the abandonment of ego as a way of confronting the reality of one’s own mortality; as Janet Gatyso puts it we simply can’t envision a world “without the all-important me.”
I think those last two are both very good ideas (although there have been lots of good ideas about egotism echoing down the ages), but Gurdjieff strayed perilously close to using shame and humiliation as a form of control, and Robert and Sharon, taking the ideas to darker areas still, have run Gurdjieff pig skin into the end zone. Tell anyone he’s very important and he’ll puff up with pride and be putty in your hands. Tell him he’s worthless excrement and he’ll cower and beg forgiveness. Tell him both things repeatedly and he’s yours to command. The teachers of the Belmont group did both and not, I think to anyone’s real benefit.
For me it worked this way: when I was recruited I was flattered; here was a secret group, chosen guardians of esoteric knowledge and they wanted me to join. The teachers stoked that sense of privilege until my own personal bonfire of vanity blazed bright enough to be seen from low orbit. Here I was doing these great things with these great people, on my way to maybe someday being responsible for a galaxy or something. I was amazing. On the other hand, as they constantly reminded me; I sucked. I was completely overridden by my false personality. I manifested in ways that were hard for anyone to endure, perhaps particularly the enlightened teachers who could see my flaws more clearly than most mortals. Oh, and I had a chief weakness but would be potentially problematic if ever I got out from under the law of accident which they alone could see and refused to make clear to me. I was the greatest guy ever, and I was totally doomed.
This is a simple and a common trick. There are numerous studies that suggest this is how successful pimps control hookers, for example. Treat them like princesses one day and gutter trash the next, and (this is important) switch between the two treatments randomly and often. Knock them off their feet and then knock them off their feet again.
I can only speak for myself, but I never saw much genuine humility in Robert and saw none at all in Sharon. Robert didn’t boast, but no one ever suggested he might be wrong or more evolved than the students. He quoted, without apparent irony, Emerson’s vision of Moses as a man who stood among his people, urging them on together, and suggested that a teacher is only a few steps further down the path from the pupil, but never doubted himself or worried about his own ego (he occasionally alluded vaguely to his own struggle as being much bigger than ours, but that was about it). Compare to, say, Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas saying “Don’t call me master” and his initial dismissal of a woman demanding healing as a “dog” before changing his mind and offering the help she needs. Even dogs get scraps, she tells him and, wounded I imagine by the sharp truth of her plea, he heals her (vs. controlling her) and (this is the crucial bit or me) never disparages anyone looking for healing or hope again. He grows and changes, which takes humility I think. I never saw Robert do that.
So yeah, we were lead down the merry path by a fraud using dime store psychological techniques known to every street corner pimp. Part of my healing from group has necessitated my acceptance that, regardless of my education background, history, level of intelligence, explicit training or whatever, I am as easily fooled as anyone else is. That grates hard against my ego, but my ego can deal; I don’t value it as much as it thinks I do.
Finally, here’s an idea that Robert never entertained when I was with him in Belmont, and the work, as he teaches it, studiously avoids. We are all schmucks, true, and we are all unique and remarkable, also true, but our remarkableness doesn’t come from Robert’s group. The hope we have isn’t evidenced by the fact that we were chosen for Sharon and Robert’s classes, or for any other ego-stoking reason. The hope we have is that while we all imperfect, we are all beloved by God (and, I would add, loved unconditionally, just as we are, whatever we do.) Most religions teach that truth as well. Robert and Sharon can’t risk engaging it, frankly. Would people still cut checks to them if they remembered that their teachers, like their students, are the beloved children of God, no more, no less?
This answer has gone on far too long. I apologize profusely to anyone who may still be reading. Your second question on the validity of self remembering, Anonymous 1, is more important to me, and closer to my heart, and I will try to wake up early tomorrow to give it the more concise but as well considered, answer it deserves.
Peace Love and Yak Spit,
Albert Arme
Almost forgot: One of the best teachings ever on pride (as well as one of the funniest) can be found in the Principia Discordia. The parable of the young man seeking enlightenment is stolen whole hog from Buddhist teachings and a bad joke, but its brilliance shines through regardless. I don’t have my copy in front of me for a page number, but will tomorrow.
Later in the morning than I had hoped, but here you go:
Anonymous 1,
Self-remembering is indeed the pivot point that you describe. For me it’s also a load-bearing wall in the house of cards that is the work as we were taught it. If the idea of self remembering is simply called into question, much of the rest of the system starts to appear shaky. If it falls much around it collapses. ... but let me try to answer your three questions succinctly, as I promised I would.
1. Is self remembering valid in and of itself? On one level absolutely. Moments of spiritual epiphany -- gained through meditation, inspiration, contemplation, illumination, prayer, or grace -- are fairly commonplace. I suspect that everyone has at least one such moment in his or her life. A common one for many people is a revelation of the interconnectedness of the universe (a moment where it becomes clear that we really “all one” as the Dr. Bronner’s soap bottle says.)
Do such experiences betray the existence of the invisible world (to use a work term that I despise for some reason), provide evidence for the existence of God, or prove (in the words of the ofttimes brilliant Peter Gabriel) that there really is “more than this” life as we know it? I don’t know. I tend to categorize my own such experiences as transcendental, and lean towards believing that the experiences of others are too, but at the day’s end I don’t know with absolute certainty what these moments mean.
2. Is self remembering true in my experience? Certainly, in as much as it happens to me on occasion. I think we all have such experiences on occasion. For me the important related question is: what do I make of them? While deep in zen meditation during college my ego vanished and I was forced to rethink my conception of myself and the world. When I was very young I awoke for a second and became convinced that there is a benign force in the universe that deeply loves us all. Gathered around the traditional spot of Mary’s ascension into heaven I joined a group of Romanian pilgrims in song and realized (not for the first or last time) that the walls we build up between each other are false and arbitrary -- they quickly crumble when we can begin to love one another as ourselves. Those have all been deeply useful revelations for me and have caused me to a life less ordinary, one where I try (and, in all honesty, fail a great deal) to be a little bit kinder, a little bit happier and a little more connect to God.
3. Is self-remembering valid as we were taught it? No. The most important thing I ever heard said on self-remembering came from Paul, a younger, less experienced, teacher who worked with Robert, sometimes subbing for him. My impression was Paul had not had the time to sink as deeply into the teachings as Robert, and would occasionally slip up and offer his own genuine human insights. Sometimes moments of self remembering just happen, he said. These moments are like gifts.
The word Paul lacked but needed there is grace, and it’s a really important idea. Robert and Sharon, following Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, offer what theologians call a deeply negative anthropology. Simply put, they view humanity as a bunch of hopeless little sh-ts. Burdened to the point of breaking by false personality, mechanical as puppets, and on a course to be recycled by the button maker, laboring under the illusion of the now removed kundabuffer, people just suck. Many of us are zombies already as Robert said, walking around dead but unaware of our condition. Our only hope is to find a school like Sharon’s and undertake enormous amounts of very difficult work. Otherwise we are all screwed. Moments of self-remembering may propel us into such a school.
I remember Robert opining about how tough it is to realize that only those in school have any real chance at evolution and that even those we love are doomed to die like dogs. I can’t reconcile that notion with my personal experiences of a loving God (or for that matter, even with the idea of a godless universe.) I can see how it propels students to ever increasing dependency on the work. As we long for more and more spiritual moments Robert could argue that what was required was more and more self observations, first through third lines of work, “study” (sometimes resembling indoctrination) of work ideas, and (by implication) his guidance. Above all, then, if we wanted spiritual insight we had to pay tuition and stay in school.
Sharon and Robert tried, with a debatable amount of intentionality, to harness the reality of moments of self remembering for their own ends. Robert claimed when he met me to have exclusive insight into how to produce such experiences of spiritual revelation, and suggested later that the existence of such experiences somehow validated all that he taught. Sharon and he dangled self remembering like candy in front of starving followers, using it to increase their student’s dependency on their teachings. Significantly, I know of no teacher from any legitimate tradition who does this. Not one. Even TM, which seemed to me to be little more than a cult when I brushed elbows with it years ago, doesn’t do this. For heaven’s sake, Amway doesn’t do this.
Robert’s and Sharon’s ideas are very useful if you want to control people, but, in my experience, they are utterly and undeniably false. I believe that a more real understanding of self remembering must be informed by the ideas of grace and love that are found in so many genuine teachings. So, while in my life I have had some validation of the “freebies” Paul describes, but I don’t think that everyone gets just one (to steal from Spiderman on Family Guy), and if we miss it, as most people do, we are doomed forever. Instead, I find better evidence for the existence of a universe infused with grace and love, one where we are not condemned to a hellish existence for failing at the almost impossible task of evolution while living on a “pain factory” of a planet, but one where no one is condemned at all, but only offered, through grace and love, the chance to live a more meaningful life, having been granted perfect freedom to reject that offer if we so choose. Teachings exist to help our capable hearts and heads make sense out of the experience of self-remembering and find our way back to God.
John Calvin’s anthropology was nearly as negative as Robert’s and Sharon’s, and yet having proved to his satisfaction that God was omnipotent and completely free to do whatever God chose to do he was astonished to conclude that what God chose to do was to love us, and extend grace to us. That revelation (for him a moment of self remembering I think) flattened him. With mouth agape Calvin wrote that God holds us in God’s arms like a nursemaid lovingly nursing a child, whispering sweet nothings to it in baby talk, knowing it may not exactly understand what is being said, but will at least know that the nurse is there and it is loved. Maybe moments of self-remembering are when we hear those loving whispers clearly. And the question reasserts itself again; having heard those sweet whispers, how do we respond?
So, self-remembering is valid in and of itself. It happens to most, and maybe all, of us. It happens to me. Robert and Sharon distort to for their own ends. I have no idea what it signifies, but it can help us strive to live different, more loving and more awake lives.
Peace,
Albert Arme
"But I say to you that everything forbidden is optional 'Do what we would not have thou do,' shall be the corollary to the law." -- Preacher Tim of the House of Blue Light
"Remember this: Sabatini was more right than even he knew. Each one of us is born with the gift of laughter and the creeping suspicion that the world is mad. So much for that, but knowing it, now what?"-- Pope Jeffeee I of the Infinite Spellings
P.S. the parable I referenced in yesterday's post can be found on line here:
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/12.php
Composing my last two responses made me think that it might be interesting to ask the rest of you similar questions about other big work ideas.
Are the following valid in and of themselves? Valid in the way they were taught to us? True in your experience?
Self observation
Mechanicality
The need for secrecy
Eternal recurrence*
*i.e. The idea that we choose to live the same life over and over again. I can’t remember what term for it Robert preferred -- this wasn’t it-- so I have used Nietzsche’s.
This is my own arbitrary list by they way. I have found little use (good or bad) for the table of hydrogens, the ray of creation, the law of seven, octaves, or the enneagram in my daily life, and so have not included them. Feel free to add or ignore.
--
Albert Arme
Albert -
I am really enjoying your posts. Thanks.
Albert, that was an excellent and informative response and I hope that by saying so it does not constitute flattery. After all, the overarching purpose of this blog is less of a social sort than a source for healing-- at least I think that is what the founders had in mind. Hence there is little room for flattery and ego in light of the serious business of healing and pursuit of the truth.
Your post merits a thorough response which is more than I can muster at this time. But I will respond to a couple of things that leapt off the screen for me if you don't mind. You mention dime-store techniques or the pimp-like behavior that Sharon and Robert excelled at. They no doubt were influenced by Alex Horn in this regard, since Sharon married him and Robert was/is a student of both.
This fact alone should help people really put their experience in perspective, especially if such people are prone to half-measures in the process of attempting to heal themselves. If ever there was a source for shunning these three completely and for some time including the ideas they espoused, it is this one. This is one reason why the use of certain terms and phrases can be so counter-productive, in my opinion-- at least to those who are struggling. The problem is too complicated: one cannot juggle wrestling with the experience of having been violated by them on the one hand while at the same time using the very ideas that they themselves introduced.
What must be considered about all three of these people is the likelihood or even self-evidence of their self-loathing-- it is quite likely the common thread that entangles them with each other and what entangles the student body. Yes, it is hard to be truly humble if you feel you are less than adequate in the first place. It is this essential blindness that has prevented them from doing good for others, and at the same time allowed them to perpetuate their fraudulent practices ("teaching" is too good a term). Not only this, but one must also consider the myriad ways this blindness manifests itself: one would be a distinct lack of humility as you have so accurately pointed out. But there are many other manifestations in addition to a lack of humility. I wonder if you or others can figure out or recall what they are?
Also consider their criteria for finding potential students for their scam and how it diverges from what was written: how many people had already "equalled life"? I daresay very few, and the irony is that those that had probably saw through the charade somehow and managed to leave. The other side of the coin is that neither Alex or Sharon had themselves ever really "equalled Life," unless they somehow are to be exempted from this fundamental requirement for belonging to a Fourth Way school-- let alone founding one! On the contrary they would not be able to tolerate someone who was further along than they themselves were. Here the self-loathing and sense of inadequacy haunts them and informs all their thinking and behavior, although unnoticed or repressed. Instead, they managed to find vulnerable and confused people of good will but who nonetheless had also not "equalled Life" in any significant way. Instead of attracting strong people-- an impossibility when you think about it-- they attracted the weak.
Some might complain about this being too general-- that there were/are exceptions. I have no problem at all accepting this as a possibility, but the exception essentially proves the rule; it does not refute it. To me Robert, Sharon, and Alex's self-loathing becomes ever clearer as time passes-- almost to the point of pity.
Yes I am familiar with Bhuddist teachings, along with a good many others. The idea of ridding oneself of the Ego and in doing so finding oneself in greater harmony with the universe is very appealing. And as one does so I believe there is a point where this oneness transcends notions of good and bad where everything "is" and not only "is" but "is Good". For Being and Good are synonymous, last I checked the Manual.
How sad but predictable, then, that Sharon, Robert, and Alex's methods were as far from this place as could be. They presumably strove to know themselves but stopped short of knowing themselves essentially TO BE GOOD. To put it in more practical terms, one can simply ask oneself the following question: knowing onesself to be good, is it possible to treat others badly?
This leads to the issue of self-remembering which will be for another time.
Anonymous 1,
Your posts keep introducing me to new ways of looking at my experience with the group. Your last one made me consciously entertain the thought that Sharon and Robert are actually quite miserable, wrestling with a lot of self hate.
I think if someone else had proposed that idea to me after I left I would have readily agreed, yet in my head, over time, I had somewhat exagerated Sharon and Robert's more villianous characteristics, choosing to see them as wicked and manipulative instead of lonely and miserable sots. The truth, of course, is that those things aren't mutually exclusive; they were both cruel and pitiable at the same time. And again Peter Gabriel springs to mind: "and the monster I was so afraid of lay curled up on the floor, just like a baby boy. I cry until I laugh."
You are right about there being other manifestations of Sharon and Robert's self loating. For me it's quite a long list, as I consider it -- but I've been talking too much of late and woud love to hear other people's thoughts. I am trying to cobble something together (purely for my own thearapuetic purposes) about their rather damaged senses of humor, which was, I think, one manifestation of both their own self-loathing and the loathing that was woven into their system generally, but I hadn't intended to post that here.
--
Albert Arme
23517@anonmail.de
Adam --
Thanks for the kind words about my posts. You're welcome; I hope they are at least as useful to you as they are to me.
--
Albert Arme
23517@anonmail.de
In-a-mirror:
I am so happy to read the recent exchanges - the tone is that which made our discussions in the small groups worth coming to class for - even after years of boredom in the large group!
This evening I was listening to a book on tape while driving and a character restates a Buddhist teaching: "live in Today and not in tommorow - nor in yesterday". Well it was one of those moments - perhaps a flash of self-remembering, perhaps simply the mind doing what it was designed to do - make connections - and I realized that "non-attachment to the results" is another facet of that idea.
Albert asked about ideas we have found to be useful:
One of these is "identification". It is easy to see in others, less so in oneself - but having seen it clearly, the need to work against it is evident. Certainly identification is often a mechanical response to events. In a moment of seeing my own state of identification, I can pull back - up really - and choose another response - often humor - which I have found on countless occasions allows others to be more true to themselves and not be thrust into a mechanical self-defense. Multiplicity, too, seems to reasonably describe the moment to moment behavior I observe in myself and others.
I find renewed courage in pursuing my studies of world religions and art, when I have moments of resonance. It is a concept we all learned in high school physics class, but it has applications all across the spectrum of vibrations.
I do agree that the law of octaves is less apparent in daily life- - but the idea of deviation seems clear.
I think recurrence is one of those bizarre ideas - applicable on a daily basis - but I am much more comfortable with the eastern teachings that reincarnation and karma are the laws established by the creator to enable mankind to have opportunities for learning and evolution.
I was incensed at the teachings that the vast majority of humanity is doomed according to "school" teachings. I was repeatedly dissappointed by the lack of efforts made to affect the larger scale of humanity. But then that bothered me in my own Sunday school as a young adult. It seems to me now, that such efforts made by a group can scarecely make a dent save to perhaps alleviate temporal suffering of a few, but that work by individuals on themselves, for others, can actually change the course of mankind.
It comes down to knowing, and not abandoning your deepest wish. Not allowing pain and suffering caused by any experiences in life to give me license to throw all that away just because I was fooled by these tricksters. I hope we can be stronger and fiercer in our battles to find truth and be really useful to humanity as a result. No thing truly happens by accident!
Namastae
In-a-mirror
Albert,
I am going to attempt to offer a counterpoint to your thoughts on self-remembering. You said:
"1. Is self remembering valid in and of itself? On one level absolutely. Moments of spiritual epiphany -- gained through meditation, inspiration, contemplation, illumination, prayer, or grace -- are fairly commonplace. I suspect that everyone has at least one such moment in his or her life. A common one for many people is a revelation of the interconnectedness of the universe (a moment where it becomes clear that we really “all one” as the Dr. Bronner’s soap bottle says.)"
You and many other posters here apparently start from a presumed metaphysical foundation when it comes to self-remembering that I would not necessarily use. To explain what I mean, Collin suggested that self-remembering began with "divided attention," which then became a moment of self-remembering when a 3rd, "higher," element was brought to bear. This explanation seems quite circular and one might consider that this circularity extends to Ouspensky's version of it. Hence your excellent "qualification" in your next statement:
"Do such experiences betray the existence of the invisible world (to use a work term that I despise for some reason), provide evidence for the existence of God, or prove (in the words of the ofttimes brilliant Peter Gabriel) that there really is “more than this” life as we know it? I don’t know. I tend to categorize my own such experiences as transcendental, and lean towards believing that the experiences of others are too, but at the day’s end I don’t know with absolute certainty what these moments mean."
My question, Albert, is what if you could take the experience in isolation-- at least initially--without any other point of reference-- what do you make of the experience? Must one make the idealogical leap to some sort of interconnectedness and have it inform ones experience, or is this in fact something that has been suggested by others-- or maybe "I don't know" is really the only answer, and a prudent one. Does self-remembering bring about that "love" that the man you mentioned did not feel and walked out of Ouspensky's lecture over? (Sorry for the garbled grammar.)
As to your second point, it seems you have had your share of epiphanies in your life, or moments of grace. If these experiences have left you a person of faith then you are truly blessed. But a fair question to you would be "Well, Albert, were you able to keep these "gift" experiences-- prior to being recruited-- in isolation from your initial efforts at self-remembering, or did they indeed color or even inform those efforts? And do you know for certain that those "gifts" were indeed revelations of "higher order" or were they perhaps suggested to you at an early age and you unknowingly projected those "acquired or learned notions" onto those later experiences and by extension the efforts to practice self-remembering? (This reminds me of the notion that Gurdjieff had in mind with regard to the West-- that he wanted to scrape clean and utterly destroy the accretion of millenia of thought and make a new beginning. If he wanted to achieve that with his book on behalf of the West, then one wonders if he also meant it for the individual as well. It would be impossible to determine, I should think.)
As to your third point, you have again brought up the important idea of "grace" and find corroboration in something that Paul said ("they are gifts") as a "slip." It leads me me to believe that it is unavoidable that we bring baggage-- both useful and not useful-- to our experience, and this includes the time with Horn, Gans, Klein et. al. Since this is the case, it is notable that in your third point you assert that
"Robert and Sharon, following Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, offer what theologians call a deeply negative anthropology. Simply put, they view humanity as a bunch of hopeless little sh-ts."
I do not know if it is fair to Gurdjieff or Ouspensky to say that creatures such as Klein, Gans (and Horn) follow in their footsteps with a deeply negative theology. What certainly can be asserted is that, if it is true for you or me or anybody else that we unavoidably bring baggage with us to this thing that has been called "school," then Klein and Gans and Horn are not to be exempted from this eventuality. Given their abhorrent conduct over the years, it is fair to assume a screwed up past that really has not been "worked on," faced, or "transcended" with any tangible results. What I remember were people who were substance abusers, be it food, cigarettes, alcohol, or prescription medications for self-medication purposes and provided by the few students who were doctors. This is the behavior of avoidance and cannot be explained in any other way.
More on your third point later.
Anonymous 1,
Anonymous 1 wrote:
"My question, Albert, is what if you could take the experience in isolation-- at least initially--without any other point of reference-- what do you make of the experience? Must one make the ideological leap to some sort of interconnectedness and have it inform ones experience, or is this in fact something that has been suggested by others-- or maybe "I don't know" is really the only answer, and a prudent one. Does self-remembering bring about that "love" that the man you mentioned did not feel and walked out of Ouspensky's lecture over? (Sorry for the garbled grammar.)"
Response:
Good and insightful question. To clarify my ideas a bit, particularly because I think our thoughts here are similar and I probably didn’t illuminate mine well enough, my multiple experiences of spiritual moments previous to school definitely helped to frame and inform my moments of self remembering -- no question. For me, three important things need to be said to clarify this.
First, I believe that Robert encouraged me, and others, to construct such a frame for self-remembering experiences. One of the things I was asked by Robert when I was initially being recruited, ostensibly to “qualify” me to participate in the group, was whether I had had any sort of spiritual experience. I described the first such moment that I remembered, which occurred when I was somewhere between 7 and 11 years old. I remember a low whistle from Robert and Paul, who breathed “so young” after I finished my description. Without explaining, Robert then went on to promise that he could teach me how to have more such moments in the future and what they meant. That sounded good to me and I didn’t mention, then, that I had other such moments in my past.
Second point, I was being set up by Robert then to frame my later self remembering experiences in a certain way. I am a critical theorist by training, which means I have entertained, and accepted the idea that nothing for us exists without context. In critical theory, narrative construction (giving meaning to the events of our lives) is considered and inescapable part of being human. Ask anyone what they did today and you won’t get a detailed list of objective facts, but rather an account cobbled together from selected facts that gives meaning to and makes sense the individual experience of whoever you asked the question. Does that make sense? We put everything into context.
I put my earliest mystical experiences, including the one I described to Robert and Paul, in context. For example, as a post enlightenment person I wondered if it was “objectively real” or the result of brain chemistry. As a attendee of a UCC church I judged my experience against what I had learned about God, wondering how well it fit what I had been taught about the divine.
When I joined the group and had experiences of self-remembering I asked fewer questions about my experiences. Why? Because Robert had provided me with a ready-made frame. He had already told me what these experiences signified and what they were. Thinking he was an advanced, knowledgeable and wise teacher, I never questioned him, but simply adopted his frame, including, as you point out, the idea that the experience was mystical. Critical theory sometimes talks about such monologic alien narratives as an act of violence and I now have some experience of that.
Neither my church nor my life ever asked me to abandon my reason, skepticism or doubt. No one else ever tried to tell me what my spiritual moments meant. Robert did, and then tried to convince me that moments of self-remembering were equal to my original experiences, and they signified exactly what he taught me they did. Am I making sense here? I don’t want to descend into the intimidating swamp of gobblety-gook that is the jargon of critical theory, but, for me, critical thought does shed at least some light on my experiences in the Belmont group, and I would like you to know what is informing and tainting my construction of this post.
Third and final point, I never told anyone in the group about seeing the grim reaper appear to pass by on a bicycle, even though that happened while I was with the group. Hold that thought for a moment. Isolated from my experience (in as far as I can do that) and Robert’s frame, were my experiences of self remembering objectively true/real/useful/important? Looking back, some were and some weren’t. Did they they lead to the love for other people and for God that I have said is critical but lacking in the ideas we learned (and A.E. Waite thought was lacking in Gurdjieff’s system)? Without exception, no.
Why no? Because, I crammed them into Robert’s frame of his version of the work when I could, and rejected the ones that couldn’t be so shoe horned. Since there was no love in that frame (or freedom, or hope), there was little possibility of their leading me to love, or freedom or hope. I would have, sadly, most likely rejected such messages if I saw them.
My experience with the grim reaper on a bicycle, a figure in a black hooded cape passing alarmingly quickly over a spot (unbeknownst to me) where a woman had recently been murdered by her boyfriend, didn’t fit into the Robert’s teachings in any way I could see (if you can see one by the way I’d love to know), and I suspect that may be why it was thrown at me, or something in me allowed me to see it-- or maybe constructed it-- that day.
It wasn’t on the same level as my spiritual experiences of God or God’s love but was a nice and necessary reminder that the universe is sometimes just a little too weird for words, a reminder that neither Robert nor I have all the answers, and no human system satisfactorily explains all of experience (see “Gulliver’s Travels” for a lengthy exploration of why all-encompassing systems like the one we were offered should not be trusted.)
The truth, as I have now learned, is that lots of people see caped figures and lots of people see the Grim Reaper (Mark Chominsky (?) of “Strange” Magazine was researching a still unpublished book on the topic and concluded that more people saw the grim reaper than witnessed UFOs.) What does that mean, and how to explain that kind of an experience? I don’t know, and I choose to join Charles Fort (who endlessly cataloged weird phenomena) in the assertion that probably no one ever will know, definitively.
And yet, as Fort writes, these things happen. For me not being able to explain such moments, whether they are spiritual or just weird, is a good thing. It’s nice to be forced to face our own capacity to fully understand and to know that this universe refuses, ultimately, to make itself understandable. I have no idea if my grim reaper moment was real or not, or what it meant, but I think it was exactly what I needed, something to call Robert’s frame and teachings into question, something to threated the boxed understanding of reality and meaning he wanted me to stay inside.
One final thought; I didn’t mean to disparage Gurdjieff’s system by comparing it to Robert’s and Sharon’s distorted teaching teachings. I do believe that Gurdieff’s system was often loveless, graceless, and frighteningly short on freedom, and thus, potentially, deeply destructive-- but you can say the same of any teaching (people have done some weird things with Christianity, and Buddhism, to name two). People often turn ideas on their heads and what was meant to liberate suddenly enslaves us. Robert and Sharon certainly perverted (to use Robert’s term) useful ideas in that way, even to the point of framing my possibly holy moments in a controlling, deadening and, enslaving way. Fortunately for me, every now and then teh Grim Reaper passes by on a bicycle.
Peace, Love and Yak Spit,
Albert Arme
23517@anonmail.de
“So have the courage of the Here and Now/ and don’t take nuthin’ from these half-baked Buddhas/ When you think you got it paid in full, you got nuthin’, you got nuthin at all. ” - Shriekback
“Madame Blatavsky and her friends changed lead into gold, and back again/ Krishnamurti said ‘I'll set you free- write a check and make it out to me.’/ You get what you pay for from me my friend/ nothing for nothing, forever amen.” -- W. Zevon
I think the response to Moishe was a bit bizarre... the poor fellow was just trying to explain that his experience was different than others on this site. It was HIS Truth, HIS reality, why was everyone jumping down his throat? He, I would hope, is as welcome, on this site, as the we all are. I'm glad for him, truly, & glad that this site may be a healing experience for others with different experiences than Moishe's. As for me, I wish only to take responsibilty for who I am, and why I stayed for 18 years, knowing that the last eight I stayed was because I was afraid to go. I lost many years of my life & sadly, lost time that I could have spent with my child, which pains me so greatly BUT I DID love the ideas, I don't think I would have ever read the books that I did, seen the art, films & plays (not "work" related ones, though, they were, for the most part, god-awful) if it were not for my connection to these people. Sometimes, as a group, when we were all in the room together & we all felt close & in love with each other-that was heavenly. Sometimes Sharon was brilliant, riveting and kind but many times I just thought she was nuts but dismissed those thoughts because, unfortunately, I AM A SUGGESTIBLE HUMAN BEING. That's part of who I am, for better or worse.
Summer Walk,
Everyone has his or her share of really fine memories of what you described. For many who have moved on with their lives it is a good thing to reflect on such experiences. For those who have not managed to move on, however, it may give rise to confusion and ambivalence that actually prevents them from moving on. You would not want the memory of such positive experiences to be an obstacle, would you?
I read an entry on the Rick Ross web site by an author named "sar" that you might want to take a look at. It is "a stroll down memory lane" that is a chilling counterpoint to your statements.
A good question to ask at this point is: do positive experiences nullify or render benign the negative experiences? Do they? Another question is whether the experiences you cited were traceable back to Alex Horn, Sharon Gans, and others. Were they?
You use a couple of phrases that echo some familiar ideas: "taking responsibility for who I am" and "I am a suggestible human being." In light of the fact that you entrusted your development to Alex Horn, Sharon Gans, and others I do not see how being "suggestible" in any way exonerates them or should be used as a scold for those who have been harmed by them. The phrase "taking responsibility for who I am" also sounds like a scold for what appears to be your sense that Alex Horn, Sharon Gans, and others to whom you entrusted your development are not culpable in some way for playing a large part in hurting your prospects and relationships and for what, Summer Walk? So you can ultimately revel in how wonderful the ideas were? On this point, it is disturbing to read that someone like yourself who has been gone from there for so long still has recourse to these two ideas that were ostensibly conveyed by Alex Horn and Sharon Gans. It makes me think that you are still under their sway-- just like Moishe3. Now THAT is bizarre. Or maybe it should be expected.
Take a look at what "sar" wrote and come back and please share your thoughts. Here's the link, all you have to do is copy and paste in your browser window:
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,49163
Happy reading!
Anon-
Thank you for your response- I thought I may have been somewhat of a shrew & I am happy someone responded . Yes, it was a horrible, dreadful story from SAR & I am sorry for him and I hope he is OK now and more importantly I hope his child that witnessed this event is safe and sound….but as I am trying to say, it all has to do with being a victim, don’t you see? It is not Sharon or Robert or Fred (the truly sick one) or any of them – it is us! "Men at some time are masters of their fates: The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves, that we are underlings."
Or as pogo, another brilliant one said: “I have found the enemy, and it is us. If I learnt anything in almost twenty years of the goodness/horribleness of that “Place” it was this….I am the maker of my life. Yes, I agreed that it was sick & disturbing and gosh, how do I say it ? (WE ALL KNEW IT WAS WEIRD, BUT WE NEVER SAID ANYTHING… ABSOLUTE COMPLICITY) I learned this or, maybe I wanted to hear this, maybe I was there to hear only this- I am responsible for my life.
So, what I am saying is this- I don’t think it was a cult, but it was pretty strange nonetheless. I think we were definitely “under a spell”. I think those that were attracted to it were “of a suggestible nature” so I think that is a great thing to find out about oneself, really. It is a lens through which I can now see how I saw the world. I don’t condemn Sharon or Robert or anyone who stole from us. There are different roles that we all assume when we come down to this planet: merchants, thieves, artists, healers, soldiers, scholars...so, we all met some thieves, big deal! we lost a lot , we gained a lot. So you know what? Who cares? I may be dead tomorrow or next week or month or year or twenty years…I just don’t want to spend it in blame against a bunch of con artists.
Ps. I only left school within the last few years, not a long time ago as you suggested in your note.
Summer Walk,
You and I have differing definitions of what it means to be a victim. You imply that a victim somehow is willing to be victimized, and somehow is complicit in his victimization. I do not agree with this statement at all. This is how one defines a "masochist." That makes your "teachers" sadists.
You also demean blame which of course is what you were taught by your "teachers" to do. Blame according to them is a "negative emotion" among a host of other things. I think it is unwise to think and to live according to their rules and definitions. It keeps one linked to them in an unfortunate, almost perverse, way. Since you have corrected my mistaken notion that you have been gone from there for a long time, and in fact have only been gone a few years, I humbly urge you to consider stopping this practice.
Do you not see the difference between holding someone accountable or responsible for their actions versus blaming them, Summer Walk?
At any rate, aside from its eerie echo of the "teachers" in their effort to abidicate THEIR responsibility to YOU, I agree that "blame" is not very useful-- unless, of course, it is part of the process by which one faces or "owns" ones own grief and pain and has a desire to move on psychologically as well as physically. Blame in this context is a necessary stage at calling a spade a spade-- but it is not a terminus. Another poster shared a definition of blame that was pretty useful in that it rendered neutral its negative connotations on the psyche. Is there something wrong with holding someone responsible for their actions, especially when they tell you to entrust your development to them?
Think of a child born to a parent who abuses and/or neglects the child. The child does not want to be victimized does he-- or perhaps because he does not know any better the issue of choice does not arise? He exists and is at the mercy of the parent or caregiver. It's all new to the child. There is no willingness there on the child's part because the child does not know any better.
Your and others' situation are NO different. The only difference is you feel you had "choice" and you knew something was up. If this were true you would have left immediately-- but like most children who do not know any better you remain to continue being victimized. This whole "inner development" and "school" stuff was new to you. You had no other "schools" to compare it with, just as the child has no other life to compare his own with. Get it?
You have no problem with realizing you were tricked, Summer Walk. You were deceived by people who likely are aware of their deception (that is another topic) and the deception has to do with your psyche, and secondarily your relationships and your livelihood. Is it acceptable to you that other people have a problem with having been tricked? Or is it possible that they are perhaps being honest with themselves, more honest than you are being with yourself?
Relationships are a two-way street. Not holding other persons responsible for their actions is a form of avoidance and does not help in being able to move on. The "teachers" should not have behaved as they did and they must be held responsible for their misdeeds. If you do not go through the process of holding them responsible for their treatment of you and others, you remain attached to them in spite of yourself.
I wonder whether this mantra of yours "I must take responsibility for my life" and its variations is an extension of the complicity you yourself have mentioned in your post. I wonder if the whole issue of blame for you was in fact hammered at incessantly as though it were your "main flaw" or some other notion. I wonder if this mantra is nothing more than the lingering effect of the danmage you "willingly" endured and not the moral rallying cry you make it out to be. I wonder whether "I must take responsibility for my life" is something like a post-hypnotic suggestion that your tormentors psychically "injected" into you so that you will continue to let them off the hook and in doing so remain attached to them.
Best wishes and good luck to you no matter what you deem worthy of consideration in what I have written, Summer Walk.
For all who still feel they gained something from Gans and her assistant vampires:
Would you send a sibling or child of yours to "school"?............
If not, what are you doing to help run these cowards out of NYC & Boston - like they fled from San Francisco in 1978.
by the way, Gans 12th St apartment is no longer listed for sale. Ilsa Kaye has not responded to an email about the status of her listing - mommy's apartment. David Goldstein has not responded to my post or email on the other thread on this blog. I plan to call both of them next week.
Don Raskopf 917-658-4492
What about "the ladder"? Does it matter?
Summerwalk,
Thank you for injecting a scintilla of sanity into this blog.
I find your experiences more interesting and they do give me the impression that it was not all gulag torture and hell for your 18 years...
(Eighteen years. Now that's a very impressive long time. When I first met Bob and Sharon, they had not even been "in School" for eighteen years.)
I hope you have the fortitude and perseverance to carve out an "ordinary life" after all this time.
My best wishes for your future success.
When I respond here that "that was not my experience," it is largely out of amazement? bemusement? something... at the sheer vitriol, not necessarily directed at School, but at me, for disagreeing with some of the perceptions written about here.
It then leads me to the simple phrase "give it up." It's not worth it.
I commented on this to my wife (who then also wanted to know why I was wasting my time with this silly stuff; ancient history) and she responded that it was more than likely that the people who are still steeped in the hatred of School and the various people involved, have nothing else going on in their lives.
I suspect that may be true, as I read the attempt to discuss various Work ideas and their meaning while, at the same time, going on about how abhorrent Bob and Sharon and whomever, are and were.
Why are you discussing "self-remembering" and the like if these ideas were all perverted and spoiled by the likes of Bob and Sharon, et al?
I would humbly suggest that the best course might be to give up the Work ideas (except where they are actually useful and lead you on to new adventures and understanding about Life); give up the hatreds; give up the involvement in School; and move on with your lives to new and beautiful things.
There is a whole world out here which has nothing to do with School and, in which your experiences of belonging to that "cult" can actually be useful and lead you on to new successes.
Because I viewed my particular experiences in School as useful, it saddens me to see so much hatred and despair at y'alls particular experiences.
We should all live and be well.
I suggest that there may be a difference between talking about school or the work ideas because you have to and talking about them because you choose to. If I choose to explore these ideas it doesn't mean that I don't have a life (one doesn't necessarily follow from the other.) As a matter of fact, it might be the opposite - in school, I was compelled to talk and think about this stuff all the time because in fact that was my whole life. Now, I have a different kind of life and I choose to figure out what happened to me for the last 20 years.
Moishe,
Now I think YOU’R being a bit harsh. I believe there are a lot of people out there in pain. Compassion & understanding is always a good place to start as one approachs dialogue. I also think that this is a remarkable site & whoever is responsible should feel extremely proud about it & by the way, this site is sort of what I’ve been talking about.
I think it is a waste of time to go over & over how horrible it was….it was for many of us; but I think it always facilitates healing to do something about it. This person took his/her experiences & found a way to DO something, change something, her/she took whatever his/her pain was & transformed it into this site where people like you & I & Us can find our way. (yes, yes, I think the jury is still out on whether to use these “work” terms, like transformation, but we all knew about transformation way before the “place”, we knew this idea as little kids. Life, when we were very young, was all about transformation).
So, I posit this….
We all share this incredible history…. Strange, weird, complex, delightful, passionate, painful. There is NO ONE except the people we shared this experience with who can understand it. NO ONE. That is spectacularly powerful. Try & find SOMETHING you learned & use it to transform whatever it is you need to transform. Connect, if you need to, with others (which has been wonderful for me), write a book about it, write a play, sit quiet & meditate on it, keep talking/writing on this site about ideas you loved/hated, make a meal about it, if you are a merchant, sell a product to heal us, make love about it if you’re blessed enough to have a sweetie Yes, to anon….perhaps I’m in some sort of denial , maybe I’m in some sort of post-hypnotic state, but life is short & to quote the brilliant William again “nothing is either good or bad but thinking makes it so”.
Summerwalk,
You are correct.
Thank you again.
Thank you Ilsa!
I would rather have my money back but at least I know where some of my money is going.
See:
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:4A4ujSsvo7QJ:www.cornucopia.org/+%22Ilsa+Lee+Kaye%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-nyedce/case_no-2:2007cv04425/case_id-274506/
http://fundrace.huffingtonpost.com/neighbors.php?type=name&lname=KAYE&fname=ilsa&older=yes&search=Search
That first URL didn't lead anywhere for me, anonymous.
Can anyone tell me why they fear using their name on this site or Ross Inst? what are you afraid of?
Moishe - you refer to your experience as ancient history. I speak to, and know of dozens of decent people who ARE STILL BEING CONNED OUT OF THOUSANDS - IN SOME CASES HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF US DOLLARS. Not 20 years ago - NOW. No one has responded to my question - would you send your sibling or child to "study" with Sharon Gans, Robert Klein, Fred Mindel, Minerva Taylor or the parasite-de-jour. By the way Moishe, call me @ 917-658-4492 if you want to speak to someone who has a life.
Don Raskopf
Oy.
Yer kinda angry, ya know, don?
Why would I want to put my real name out on the internet for very angry people to see and do with what they will?
Plus, I do believe the folk that started this blog deliberately asked for people to not use their real names... I believe observing that wish is called being respectful...
Now, although I fear that I am doing a "Gary Hart" thing here, if you really wanted to find out who I am, you could simply Google "Moishe3rd" or even link to my occasional blog from this site and track me down to harass me further. But, why in the world should you care?
To answer your question - 30 years ago I dreamed that my children would one day have the benefit of finding a "School" such as the one that I was in.
When my oldest son was a toddler, we took him to the Ranch in Montana a few times. I loved his interactions and the whole feel of Montana. We were still improving and building it at that time and it was all very exciting.
One night, in the dead of winter, Alex had three of us guys build a floor for one of the cabins. We worked all night, measuring, cutting, pounding and nailing this tongue and groove flooring together.
It was a glorious dawn and I was in another state of consciousness by the time we were done. I spent the rest of my time there with intense perceptions of everything.
One of the guys working with me practically had a nervous breakdown as a result of slaving away all night at, for him, a totally incomprehensible task under grueling conditions.
The other guy bitched and moaned and was pissed off the whole night but, when I was ready to quit because it was morning and the last couple of floorboards just wouldn't go in right, he bitched and moaned and harassed us to finish the damn thing properly.
We did. And, it was after that my spirit soared. It wasn't until much later at one of the group sessions where I explained to this fellow that without him, we would not have finished, that he also had this terrific realization which changed his entire attitude and perceptions...
I had many such experiences in School that I found similarly useful. So yes, at the time, I hope that my son would have the same kind of advantages that were afforded to me.
Today?
Absolutely not.
Based on the hatred and despair that you and others write about, it sounds like "School" is not very useful.
But, even if it still was, I have moved on.
As I noted before, we are (ultra?) Orthodox Jews. I believe in the Torah and my children were all raised as Orthodox Jews and are steeped in Torah and Judaism today, as adults.
Gurdjieff and Ouspensky's forays into esotericism totally miss Judaism.
Alex and Sharon and Bob and Fred all (internally) denied or dismissed their Jewish heritage.
This, for me, demonstrates a huge hole in the teachings of the Work and its sources.
The Torah is the esoteric blueprint of the World and the source of much of what the Work was about.
So, no, I would not have my son or the rest of my children study with people who deny the reality of their roots and of the roots of the very ideas they proclaim exist throughout history in the fabled "red thread."
Why (IMHO) go for the ersatz knowledge when you can live the Real Thing?
And, that being said, to give credit where credit is due, being in School led us to study Judaism.
We were taught, as a Work idea, that a person should study and practice their own religion. There is a reason we chose to be born into the Life we chose, and that includes one's parents; the era; the place; and the religion.
We spent a great deal of time and effort "going whole hog and paying the postage" in studying and practicing Judaism. Experimenting. Step by step. With a healthy dose of skepticism. "Can it hurt? Might it help?"
As I was not born Jewish, I spent the first several years of this religious experiment going back to Church. Singing in Choir; Teaching Sunday School; Becoming a Lay Minister; Going to Bible Study every week; Being elected to the Board of the Church; etcetera...
As the years went by, I came to my own conclusions based on my own experiments and experiences and abandoned Christianity for Judaism.
This has proven to be good. :)
So, no - I am quite satisfied with the spiritual path my children are on and would not seek to change it for anything.
Lastly, as I have been chided for being "unhelpful," does this particular response help anyone?
Moishe3rd,
I can't speak for others, but your comment of 8 November was extraordinarily helpful to me. My heart generally soars when I hear tales of folks who have found their way to a rich and rewarding faith tradition and have discovered and useful meaning there. I am glad that Judaism has been good to you in this way.
I also suspect you are right about Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, whose teachings are rooted in a unique, but shaky interpretation not just of Torah and Judaism but also of ancient Greek philosophy, Christianity, Buddhism, Sufism, yoga, the Vedas, and a number of other religious traditions, philosophies, and scared texts. Gurdjieff's all embracing scheme to link ideas from these sources together is seductively coherent but comes at the price of of a serious distortion of the traditions it borrows from. People who long to punch old G.I. in the nose for doing disservice to their traditions will likely have to wait in a long line.
Going straight to the sources Gurdjieff borrowed from is a better, if sometimes more demanding, route to take. Robert once told me that the great thing about the work was that researching and studying all the old philosophies and faiths was no longer necessary since Gurdjieff and Ospensky "had already done that." Actually that may be the work's biggest liability.
I'm also glad to hear you benefited from an all night "super effort" to build a floor. I had a couple of similar moments after nights of hard work with the Belmont group, but found that, despite my enormous efforts to convince myself they were spiritually rewarding, they paled in comparison to moments of illumination achieved after periods of deliberate, difficult and focused work undertaken well outside of the Belmont group. Being in the group didn't have much to do with illuminating moments achieved after hard work; in fact I think being in the group probably robbed me of such experiences or lessened their impact. I'm sure your son will have his own share of illuminating experiences, whether or not he finds the sort of genuine esoteric school that OSG pretended to be.
I owe you an apology, by the way. Some of the responses you have received here must have seemed unduly harsh. Part of that, I suspect, has to do with the nature of the internet, a medium which tends to magnify insignificant differences and run roughshod over subtleties of tone and niceties of expression.
Part of that has to do with this particular audience. People who have had their spiritual quests even temporarily derailed by hucksters tend to be understandably angry. Such anger makes it hard to hear people Sometimes some of that anger gets directed at innocent targets.
Talking to one another on the net requires extra effort to read the words of others carefully, guarding against a tendency we all have to make assumptions about other people's meaning and intent. Often, the needed trick is to trust others to tell us what they think. If you can do that with everyone here and everyone here can do that with you I think we can all learn a great deal from one another. For such a reward I'm more than willing to make the effort.
Peace,
Albert Arme
23517@anonmail.de
Moishe Et al
It seems you missed the point of not using a screen name. Gans' hack lawyer bullied one web host into dropping this site.
"We emphasize to you that all of the material on the web site is posted anonymously, apparently in an effort to evade legal liability for this improper content. Please be further advised that this web site was previously hosted by a United States company, Homestead Technologies, Inc. Because of the abusive, defamatory, threatening and other improper content on this web site, Homestead removed the content from the web site, and terminated the web site approximately one week ago. However, the operator of that web site has now re-posted all the objectionable content through Time dotNet's internet hosting services."
So you are afraid that "angry people" will hurt you? I really do not care what your name is. This is not about you. Gans, Mindel, Taylor, Klien and others are committing fraud, tax evasion, abuse of non-profit tax exemption,etc,etc.
I have made it my personal goal to stop these cowards from "teaching" in New York. They can move to Guyana and set up Fredtown.
Moishe -Does your temple or schul treat you this way?
How much money did you give to them?
How many of your friends were conned out of million dollar inheritances?
How many thousands of hours did you work on real estate purchased for "school"?
Do you care that Gans and her henchmen sold these properties for MILLIONS OF DOLLARS?
Where are the finacial records for OSG & Hudson Valley Artists Foundation?
Yes Moishe, I am very angry. And I am actually doing something about it.
Don
My first post after following this wonderful web site from its nascence. As a part of the "great millenium escape" from the New York group, in which time approximately 20 people, or 10% of the total student 'enrollment' of New York, escaped, I've spent the last seven years healing myself and my life. A part of the early healing was to recognize and accept that 1)Sharon (who I like to call 'Big Red' is dishonest with her students, and has the behavior in her personal and public life of a sociopath (see Martha Stout's excellent 'The Sociopath Next Door'); 2) Her 'school' was set up to practice fraud and deceit upon its members, using classic methods of mind-control; 3) this experience had left me in a state of Post-traumatic Stress Syndrome, as it will for most people who escape from a cult or similar high-stress situation, such as war; 4)People who have left school have different reactions, not all of them open, friendly and kind. But they have to deal with the experience in their own way and hopefully find healing and grace; 5) no one you love who is still in school will leave on your say-so - they have to have some part of themselves that wants to leave, and they have to be able to acknowledge that doubt and not repress it,as so many other urges, fears and emotions are repressed by the proper student behavior.
This posting is to give out to those of you still suffering pain, outrage, confusion, betrayal, all of the polyglot of emotions that need to be recognized, processed, dealt with, transcended, that there is relief, there is progress, your life will only continue to get better and better. The initial year of leaving is often very difficult, but remembering that you have PTSS will enable you to find the symptoms, recognize their application to you, work through the triggers, the nightmares, the freezes in action, lingering depression, and other effects. And as soon as you can, look at your life and decide how you want it to be - you'll make it happen.
When I left I was still clinically depressed, in a horrible job I loathed that Sharon had forced me to take, on threat of leaving school, had gained 50 lbs over the past couple of years, had multiple chronic and severe problems with my intestinal and digestive track, constant headaches from tension and sleep deprivation, anxiety, thousands in debt, no love interest, no children, strained relations with family and friends. When I look at the past seven years, I'm so shocked that I've turned my life around completely in such a short time! My 12 years in 'school' were a large downward spiral, and by 8 months out I was pursuing a profession in which I'm now extremely successful, which I adore, I am looking to buy property with my savings, I've been back to graduate school, I have a wonderful partner to explore love and sharing with, I have my first ambitions in my career field, I have made new friends, repaired older relationships, dropped a number that were sucking me dry of blood. I lost 55 lbs just by living, and have picked up a myriad of new interests and activites. My mood is almost always light and happy (maybe because I get to sleep?) but I also can confront, express anger, disappointment, and other 'negative' emotions - the ones that are just part of life, and are necessary because they are a part of us. My so-called 'weaknesses' of self-pity lack of attention to detail are exposed as the artificial creation of Sharon's little brain and my sense of something being not entirely copacetic about school and its structure and motives. If you suspect you're a mouse in a trap, you're not likely to feel happy for yourself.
One last point: 'Talking' about your experience is healthy and helpful to you. I know people who've been out for years and never told a soul what they were doing all of that time. I did tell friends and family, and learned that you get different reactions and you may not want to tell a lot of people, but you can tell those who love you, and get their support and understanding, and clear their heads about your history, and your can get support here, but shout out your experiences in this safe venue. Not only will it help you, others will hear, and believe me, it's driving our former furhers crazy - really, they are just not having a good time with all of this communicating. Have faith and carpe diem.
On the question of anonymity or not, please try not to judge others for taking whatever process they need to for peace and recovery. If it helps someone to post their name and information, great - good for you!But that this is not everyone's choice should be respected. Let's not make assumptions about what constitutes courage - giving that kind of limited definition to people's emotional struggles is just the kind of thing that Big Red and her crew specialize in. What they DON'T convey is compassion and understanding - try to understand that people do what they can, and they recover in their own ways, some sweep it all under the carpet and some shout from the rooftops. That's why we're so happy to be free individuals again.
Remember that all of these people have been victimized. Some may fear retribution from the cult - I don't think you'll see Fred and his goons drive up in a big white van and kidnap you - They've demonized me plenty and I've never been attacked outside of their classes. They are too frightened of any whiff of criminality - San Francisco and the allegations of child abuse cued Sharon onto that one.
Some people feel embarrassed at having been 'taken' for so long, or feel it would color how others in their life regard them, at home or in a job - this can actually happen. Although many many many people have had cult experiences in this country, some don't recognize their experience as such (try talking to a Forum graduate); manyhave never had such an experience and will look strangely at you as if wondering why you're not constantly chanting Hari Krishna and begging for money. Some have had some personal experience and will understand. But opening up about this is difficult, frightening, and embarrassing - I prefer people to encourage others to regain their comfort and happiness, not accuse and berate. I had plenty of the latter in my dozen years in the group, and that's more than my share in this life. An excellent book on the widespread influence of cults in America, and the kind of people who join them is Cults in Our Midst by Dr. Margaret Singer, a psychiatrist who specializes in studying cults. She reports that most victims are highly intelligent, highly functioning people who are generally extremely cynical, but who are idealism. Their idealism is what catches them, because they want more from life, or to better it somehow. Cults sneak under their cynical radar and they can get a good grip because if you convince a cynic of the truth of something, they'll really hang on. I don't think that sounds like a bad description of us all, pretty accurate and complimentary in fact. So don't feel bad about getting caught - it actually reflects very well on who are are.
By the way, there are rumors that Alex Horn is dead, maybe died int he summer in Montana or California? Can anyone confirm? Or is that just a "consumation devoutly to be wished"?
ghostdog etal
Thanks for sharing the particulars of your recovery. I have the great fortune of being a recovering alkie (saving a large seat for gans) & talk about my cult experience, strength & hope all the time. Drop me an email or call (EXPLICIT DISCLAIMER TO ALL - I WILL NEVER,EVER,EVER BREAK ANOTHER'S ANONYMITY PUBLICLY OR PRIVATELY) Do we know each other?
To clarify-
I published my personal information on this (& Ross) solely in response to Gan's legal lapdog Goldstein & his pathetic bullying. This coward's coward has not responded to my emails, posts or phone calls - called his office - got a human who said he would be right with me- gave my name - "I will put you into his voice mail"
My intent is to encourage transparency, visibility, publicity and most of all TRUTH (as I see it) - all of which are sunlight, silver bullets & wood stakes to the vampires. I was expelled by Gans in Nov '98 and my path has brought me here - I make a vow to myself to run them out of town - NYC, Boston - or die trying. "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."
I have learned in AA the difference between public anonymity and visibility within the fellowship.
Don Raskopf
I personally wish people wouldn't call these "Sharon and Robert's ideas" - no one owns the ideas, they exist in many religions, esoteric traditions, histories, mysteries and sacred creeds. They belong to no one person, and their truthfulness is, I think, found in whether they inspire people to better and more loving actions as human beings, and more hope within themselves. Then it's a real idea, in my definition. So go ahead and talk about it, study it, enjoy.
Sharon Gans, however fabulous some people's experiences may have been, is a clinical psychopath. I have factual firsthand knowledge of her history, supported by family members I've interviewed. Her own parents were terribly concerned about her mental stability and sent her to therapy for a number of years as a teenager. She chose not to continue therapy, but her ex-husband certainly excouraged her continuing it. Her anti-abortion stance is hypocrisy as she herself aborted her husband's child, without his knowledge, when she ran off with Horn, leaving her two children to their preferred parent, their father. She later got the children to move in full time with her in california by a systematic campaign against their feelings for their father. Then she went after child support from her ex-husband.
EVERYBODY who stayed for even a short time had good experiences - otherwise, why would you stay? MANY people felt that they had higher or esoterically influenced exchanges with their teachers - well, charisma and a great network of information gathering on their students makes sure that those other-worldly miracles are frequent.
Sharon never studied the Gurdjieff Ouspensky system with a reputable, accepted trained teacher. She doesn't know many of the work ideas and people around her in private life will tell you that she often moans about having to go teach (and these are the people who are her leiutenants, who drop everything to come over and wipe her bottom if she wants - they told me that "class is such a burden to someone as evolved as Sharon". Gee, I think the Dalai Lama seems pretty evolved, maybe as much as some people perceive Sharon to be - how come he doesn't seem burdened by teaching, but rather lightened by it? As a teacher I can report that teaching is an enlightening joy, as well as a difficult challenge.
Take a good look at Sharon - a really good look. She's about 73, 74 - who has long red hair at that age? It's a bit young for her, wouldn't one think? Could it be that she's vain about her age, her obesity hidden in grand tent-like robes, her face - the nose is definitely not the original, which was really unsightly - I'd have done it too. But why does she present herself as natural? She avails herself of the same "criminal" surgeries and appearance altering products that all rich old bats in our society use to make themselves look freakishly 'youthful' - and people do believe that she's natural. They talk about her 'ageless face'.
Look, the truth is that if you had good and warm experiences only with Sharon, good for you. IN her life she is selfish, wealthy, abusive, controlling - oh yeah, she's that in school too. I do believe that more highly evolved people are around - but I know that most of them don't ask you for money.
Very powerful accusations bluebelly and shocking truths about Sharon. Pity for her has been evoked in me which is new. The ideas came thru to me despite the poor transmitters. Personnally I don't like the elders but I am grateful to have heard the teaching...and now I am alone and it is wonderful as the ideas still feed me. It is so interesting to read this blog now and again.
Ours is truly a sad lot. Where does escape lie when the truth is revealed? How long can one point the finger and think I am some how better? What a journey this is....thanks for the comments.
It has been a while since I have written and now I find I cannot seem to catch up to on all that has been said.
I will comment, though, since the recent blog by bluebelly clarifies a great deal for me.
I think we are all longing for connections like we felt when we were anticipating something vast and wondrous as new adherents to the groups. I know I miss that feeling of awe and anticipation, but at the same time I am so glad I am free to let go of the weird superstitiousness that developed in me during that time. I became strangely superstitious, attributing events and occurrences to things that somehow explained them according to my imaginary schema of the universe. It was all based loosely on my interpretation of the so called work ideas, and based on all that was said that I retained from words of teachers. These superstitions only brought me misery and embarrassment when expressed to family members or others outside after I first severed my ties.
I was caught in the web of it for so long after I left, though, that I continued for at least 12 years hoping to go back, still believing in the goodness of it. For some reason, it took a lot for me to let go. Maybe it was because I blamed everything on myself. And I do see the temptation to jump on the bandwagon now and gang up on Sharon et al partly to take the blame off myself. And some of that I’m sure is right. It’s only natural after recognizing and learning about the damage that was caused. I mean a person plays God with people’s lives for years and years, literally takes the souls of those lives and directs them as though they are in a theatrical play, a play in which intentional lying is taught, different characters enter and exit seemingly at the whim of the director, marriages, and divorces are dictated, children are born and given up for adoption, or kept but not told their real parentage, abortions are not encouraged, but forgiven, and once in a blue moon encouraged in private, and above all ticket holders pay a costly price and the whole process is shown up to be not only fraudulent and corrupt, but sociopathic, and what do you expect? It’s like we all wake up to find out we are breaking free of the insane asylum and we want so much to pull others out with us. I am wondering about those who have chosen to stay, and if any new people are leaving of their own accord, and finding out about this or other blogs, and making new discoveries for themselves. I am extremely curious and concerned for those still in.
I have found myself completely absorbed by stories of similar situations, remote though they may be. I was riveted by the news story that broke out about the Elizabeth Smart case years ago, and also riveted by a documentary on the life of Frank Lloyd Write - the part about how he and his last wife set themselves up like teachers of the ‘work’ of some sort where they sat at the head of meetings on a throne-like section in their home, and she directed the women to the point of telling them only what they could wear, what they could cook, and whom to date. Theirs was also an offshoot of Gurdjieff, many years ago, more close to the source since they both studied with Gurdjieff himself. But the people who were interviewed in that documentary, some at least, were as resentful about the control his wife exerted on them is seems. And I used to think that Frank Lloyd Writes’ genius was attributable to the ‘work’, but actually he was always incredibly gifted, from his early years on up, and he showed the greatness of his design sensibility long before he met Gurdjieff. So that was interesting.
I personally cannot get enough of these stories. I watched the Jim Jones documentary not so long ago and the appalling story it tells. I think it means that I still long to understand more about being under the influence of ‘group think’ in relation to myself. I am fascinated with the fact that people other than myself are able to fall under the spell of manipulators the way I did. The truth is that I was falling under the influence of other groups before I found ours. I see why the movie “The Bourne Supremacy” has such appeal. When I found our group I thought it was the real deal, and so dismissed the other groups as somehow less valid by comparison. I don’t know why I needed to do that. And I do see that I am responsible for all of it in the sense that I could only join of my own free will, and I alone chose to do that and to “believe.” But that, at the same time, does not excuse the leaders of the imposture and fraudulent behavior I know went on when I was there. I engaged in that behavior too, so where do I draw the line of responsibility? I did not originate the group and therefore did not originate the corruption, but I chose to participate in it believing it was for the good, and waiting to see how the outcome of good would unfold and help the world. I was certain it was right, even with the indications that it was flawed. I simply pushed those ‘negative’ thoughts aside, gave them no credence, which was what I was taught to do. And I did this all in an effort to ultimately validate my choice to believe. The dangers of blind faith!
It is so great to read everyone else’s ongoing input into this blog and, and as I said at the beginning, I have some catching up to do, but I want to say thanks to all of you who write, because it is most interesting, helpful, and useful beyond what I think we can see from our own individual perspectives. If you’re considering writing but have not taken the plunge yet, I would encourage you to go ahead. Choose youre words carefully, stay anonymous if you wish, (I do), but participate, because it feeds everyone if you do.
Cheers and have a truly Happy New Year!!!!!!!
Xram ochuorg
Years ago, I read a story in a collection of stories dedicated to the 1920's horror writer H.P. Lovecraft. It was called "A Game in the Pope's Head" and was an interesting exploration of illusion and disillusionment -- two great themes, I would argue, of all of our time spent in "school"in its own right, but it was not the memories of the story that recent comments here have stirred, but rather of a single sentence in the introduction to the story.
The problem with H.P. Lovecraft, the author of "A game..." argues, is that other writers continually steal the wrong weapon from his arsenal. They focus on his horrific -- border-line purple -- prose and dated style, while completely ignoring his real source of power; the unique and inventive mythology that underpins Lovecraft's work.
I wonder if I haven't been making a similar mistake. Much of my thoughts about "school" has revolved around the ideas that were presented there and the self styled "teachers" who taught them. Thinking this way begs an obvious question for me; if the teachers were frauds and the ideas deeply distorted (and maybe not all that valuable even in the pure form), why did I stay so long?
Trying to answer that question I have found myself either caught between poles of blame, or desperately seeking justification for my decision to linger in the form of some great, powerful, and useful knowledge lurking behind the cynical mechanisms and deceptions of school. Put simply I have spent a lot of time deciding whether to blame Robert and Sharon or to blame myself more, and a lot of time vainly looking for the brilliant truth of Gurdjief's teachings that, even when conveyed in a distorted form, kept me either hypnotized, snake-like by Robert's lectures or simply glued to my seat.
But what if I've been stealing the wrong weapon here? A recent “Non-Christmas party Christmas party” held in the home of another escapee from Gans' twisted and disastrous school provided the opportunity to meet and interact with a number of former classmates away from Robert’s watchful gaze and Sharon’s borderline psychotic need to manipulate the personal relationships of her students. What I found, enjoying everyone’s company on neutral ground, is that all of OSG’s ex-students are really rather nifty people, friendly, intelligent, compassionate, clever and kind. This particular epiphany is not a revelation so much as a confirmation of something I knew all along, there are some remarkable people who have suffered through the school in Belmont, New York and elsewhere over the years, just, as I suspect, there are some remarkable individuals trapped still trapped within it today.
So, as 2008 dawns, I have this to add to the blog, maybe the reason I stayed as long as I did had less to do with the ideas presented, or the manipulations of the leaders, or my own weaknesses, and more to do with the company. You fellow escapees were a great group of people then, and are even better for having been freed from the life-draining structure of the school. It is my pleasure to know everyone of you, through this blog and in the greater world, which for me, at least, has become a much more interesting place now that I know you all are in it.
Like Xram ochuorg I, too, thought I had found the only genuine esoteric organization in existence when I found the group (ignoring the others I had encountered). Looking back, I think what I really found was friends in all of you, a real treasure, a genuine pearl of great price, that I didn’t, for the longest time, know I had. Happy 2008 everyone. Peace be with you.
Albert Arme
23517@anonmail.de
Well...
I have not looked at this blog for quite awhile and it looks like I have missed alot - but mostly from a handful of contributors.
I am struck by how much of the content centers around what went on "back then." I have certainly enjoyed reading others' experiences and benefitted from the many insights, but at this point (the dawn of a new year, no less), I feel the need to look forward and ask what I want in my life ahead.
No, this is not a veiled post by some school member trying to stop the comments about abuses, etc. Actually, in reading so many of the comments, I realized that there are still people out there actively striving for something higher, while I think I largely shoved all that aside after being pushed out of "school."
For me, being in the group was my only real exposure to many enriching aspects of life and spirituality, and I am beginning to see that I kind of threw the baby out with the bathwater when separating from the physical invlovement with the group. The question I keep asking is "what is the real/best way for me?" For many years now I have been avoiding any organized ideas/institutions as probably just as corrupt/infallible as the group I left. But now it seems that outlook may be an excuse not to look, not to listen, not to strive.
My outer life is fine on the surface, but I miss the inner fire I had, and wish I could rekindle it in a more constructive context.
I am not asking for directions here, just reflecting that all the accumulated posts have helped me feel hope that there is more out there and that with diligence and luck, a new path can be found.
Happy New Year to all of you - whomever you are!
Correction: fallible
The idea of finding another group is distasteful to me for many reasons. The biggest one is that the time for that kind of manifestation of the ideas is over. If you look back at the beginnings of that particular group it started with Alex in Ca post 1960's. Robert and Fred being lost affluent hippy/types searching for meaning. Sharon was an unhappy actress insearch of meaning too and the atmosphere was ripe for the formation of this branch of the work which fell in time to mechanicality and corruption. So what's so surprising...really.. For me it was a good ride and the Work and the ideas have become internal and I am richer for it. Does anyone else think that the day for the "group" has come and gone? Yes and happy new year everyone. Would enjoy thoughts and comments. Thanks
I agree that groups, while useful, have the natural laws of deviation working against them. I remember many ideas we discussed in my early years there that dissappeared from the lexicon - triads - demonstrating the law of three, specific laws of the 96(!), among them. There was a terrific focus on sharing our work and many aim reports were given that served that purpose. Over the past 8+ years, those reports were nixed by Robert - why? I'm guessing so he could maintain control over what ideas were introduced into the classes.
It is disturbing to realize that, even without leaders with their own mind-bending agendas, over time group-think is inevitable, self-satisfaction results and lack of perspective is assured.
If you are interested in the phenomenon of Groups and Deviation, try reading "Rogue Messiahs" by Colin Wilson, who also investigated Gurdjieff and many other fascinating topics. Based on his research covering a period of about 350 years and at least 20 sects, groups and cults, Wilson theorizes that a leader will inevitably be corrupted by any or all of sex, power or money.
Compared to some of the folks out there, we got off lightly with this crew!!!
Another interesting author I just discovered is Dan Millman, of the Peaceful Warrior books (recent movie on him is out, I believe.) His teacher, who never asked for $ - at least not in the books _ presented him with many ideas similar to the System, but supplemented these with some real esoteric exercises and experiences, demonstrated powers, but always was benign and seemed incorruptible. I could not help wondering if R & S had read his books to mine them for ideas and teachings. He was first published in Berkeley in 1980.
I will continue my studies and efforts to do some good in this world. That's what it was always about - how to make a difference in the world - not for ego - but because it needs doing.
I hope that over time those of us that have left are able to heal, forgive themselves and the "teachers". After all, they will have their Karma to face too.
A Joyous New Year to you all.
There really is an opportunity for those of us interested, to grow some being in the labor of forgivness of all involved including oneself and see a bigger picture. Involving events and dimensions as things played out the only way they could given our levels of being. And as the last blogger writer stated any endeavor is subject to the laws of deviation. Good to have this chance to exchange ideas,thanks.
hassin et al-
"any endeavor is subject to the laws of deviation"
that is brilliant-it explains just about everything.
and to my friends- Happy Happy New Year!!!- This will be a great year.
I have struggled to forgive myself and those involved. I also am working to remember the good. So many years spent in some kind of hope that there could be a group salvation. Individual evolution was the catch phrase and it really is individual. Self remembering brings great peace to me as I know why I was attracted to this group and the people involved. There is also a refined herd mentality that I have had to see about myself as I would often think I was better than the average machine because I was in "the work". It's wonderful to be alone now and look back with understanding and compassion. I miss the way we spoke about things sometimes but I sure do not miss the chatter of the personalities and false personalities.
Does anyone else have recurring nightmares about their time spent in school? I cannot seem to get past them and, although I am always glad to wake up and find that they are not real, it still bothers me. I guess I still know they are harming countless numbers of people, regardless of how many have left. I cannot buy into "forgiveness" to those who continue to distort the teaching, profit from it, and manipulate well-meaning naive souls.
Nightmares? you-bet. Usually I am STILL THERE in class wondering why they let me in the door!!!!
The dreams will come less often in time - just as the stomach-knotting tension from all the fear and guilt relax. Have faith in your own higher nature.
Consider that the the act of forgiveness is also one of healing - I think it affects the "forgiver" more than the "forgivee" - but on the off-chance that forgiveness can do some good for those who have hurt you - why not do it? Certainly, as we were told, it is right to hate the odious -- and you can certainly take a stand against evil and the odious wherever you see them.
My experience is that it corrupts my being to continue to harbour anger and vengeful thoughts towards these devious charlatans. Haven't you had the experience of sensing the chemical changes in your body/blood when you are angry, etc?
What is your desire in this?
Where do you want to spend your energies?
It is now, more than ever, really your in your hands to choose!!
Greetings and Salutations indeed!
Let me say at the outset I was never a member of this group. However, I can relate to most of what is being said.
For a dozen or so years, I was part of a "cult" - that's what it is, run by a so called "student" of Horn and Gans called Robert Burton. He started the "Fellowship of Friends", an organisation designed to operate in much the same fashion - or as one of your bloggers put it rather concisely - "for monetary gain, power, manipulation and control".
So successful has he been at achieving this, that he now too has an entire blog dedicated to his revealing his lavish practises, bizarre teachings methods and perverse sexual exploits - the latter which I believe got him expelled from your group in the first place.
Such is the way of the world it seems... even now, some human (if one can use that term) actions, still strike me as incomprehensible, though I do realise that various forms of psychological sickness can have an air of "normality" from the outside. And more often than not we only learn the tell tale signs on hindsight.
Anyway if any of you are interested in reading a blog - fiery and explicit at times, but with some strangely similar parallels to yours, you can visit:
http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/
One can find a certain amount of solace in knowing one is not the only one...
Hi all-
Just thought I'd mention that someone is saying definitively that Alex Horn died last September. This is from the blog mentioned below. http://www.thealexhornpages.blogspot.com/
From a Social Security Death Index search performed by someone on the Fellowship Blog:
Name
ALEXANDER HORN
Birth
14 Aug 1929
Death
30 Sep 2007
Last Residence
10011 (New York, New York, NY)
SSN
565-36-0399
Birthplace
California
SUMMER WALK WROTE: (10/13/07)
"There is NO ONE except the people we shared this experience with who can understand it. NO ONE. That is spectacularly powerful."
Respectfully disagree.
Millions can understand it- if they've been involved with a cult.
HELP !!!!!
How do I get out?
Can anyone help me please? I feel paralized and frightened. Afraid about what will happen if I leave but I'm getting desperate to get out.
this might help-- i know it helped me.
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,9382,9382#msg-9382
Carlisle--
Freedom, much like the cliched long journey, often starts with a single step. Find something else to do instead of class one night, preferably something with non-work friends. Take in a lecture, see a movie, have a long dinner. If you need someone to go with, I'd suggest asking anyone from this blog. I don't know if you're in Boston or New York, but if you're Boston based I'd be happy to hang out with you and/or anyone else you'd care to invite. If you're in striking distance of central NH, I'd be happy to speak with you anywhere between me and you whenever it's convenient for you and I'm available.
You're not alone, and all of the folks I have met who, like me, have squeezed out from under the thumb of OSG are pretty wonderful people. I will certainly offer you any sort of help assistance I can.
popegeoffe1@mac.com
Peace,
Jeff (although some call me Al)
Carlisle, You are brave to write on this blog...I would have been too afarid. You can always lie and say you need to take a leave to care for a dying relative in California and just leave and cut the ties...using clever insincerity for your own aim to get out from under. It is major imagination and herd mentallity thinking you can not leave to live you life as you want. Take the help from bloggers that know your delemma...the world does not end when you say bye for now. Good luck
I've always wondered about the Wikkipedia entries for Sharon, et. al.
You can create an account on Wikkipedia without giving them an e-mail address. It is totally anonymous. Then you can look at the history and look at all the different versions of the entries.
Fascinating to see what "they" have had removed. For example:
'''Sharon Gans''' (born [[1942]] in [[New York City]]) is an [[United States|American]] actress. Her only film was [[George Roy Hill]]'s [[Slaughterhouse-Five (film) |Slaughterhouse Five]] as Billy Pilgrim's annoying wife. She and her husband, Alex Horn, ran the Theater of All Possibilities in [[San Francisco]] until 1978, when its doors were closed due to allegations of abuse. While the Theater did produce stage shows, it was a cover-up for a cult group run by Sharon and Alex Horn based on the work of [[P.D. Ouspensky]] and [[G.I. Gurdjieff]]. However they were never trained by either of the above or indeed recieved any "occult" training from anyone. They read books and invented their "teachings" as a money making proposition. Their cult is now based in and around NYC, Carmel (NY),and Boston and is run by "Robert", "Lorraine" "Sharon" "Alex" "Minerva" "Fred" etal. More complete information on this cult may be found
Hi everyone. I just found this blog by googling Sharon Gans. I was there from 1980-1982, in New York. They put on a play about puppets, I don't remember now what it was called. When inside myself it was time to leave (even though I knew for a while there were lots of problems), it was amazing that I was able to make a clean break. Sharon would call me begging for me to come back, but I no longer needed her or Alex. I experienced the violence and having an engagement broken up. I witnessed pressure for a woman to give her baby up to the Imlays. I witnessed a lot of encouraged and instructed marital infidelity, etc. I was in Montana twice. I wish I could see some of my friends from back then- our relationships were very deep and bonding, and the sudden separation left me yearning for them, but not the school even until this day my curiosity still exists. I am especially curious about "Moishe" who posted here, because he was perhaps during my time, and because I too am an Orthodox Jew, with a wonderful family and a wonderful life
Hey tatty.
A Freilchin Purim!
Beats the heck out of me whom you is... I left a message at the blog linked to your name.
Email me.
And, just in case anyone cares, I am, indeed, saying Kaddish for Alex.
I am fairly sure that no one else is going to say Kaddish for him. We can all use as much help as we can get in both this Life and the Next...
Moishe3rd wrote:
"And, just in case anyone cares, I am, indeed, saying Kaddish for Alex.
I am fairly sure that no one else is going to say Kaddish for him. We can all use as much help as we can get in both this Life and the Next..."
To reiterate verbatim from another blog:
By all means, light a yarzheit candle for the guy-- and say "yisgedal"-- as well as for every human being who was harmed by crossing this psycho and his wife's path. The thought of it makes me gag.
I was in the group/school for almost two years in the early 80s. for the first year, it was the most fun I’d ever had. It was like an experience that was tailor-made for who I was and what I needed. All the books and ideas were intellectually stimulating, I loved the people in the school, I was always being sent off on crazy ‘experiments’ which were great fun to talk about afterward. The secrecy just added to the allure. I was always going off for midnight assignations, climbing fire towers, singing on the bus, getting up before dawn to play softball. It was one great adventure after the other, with terrific people whom I adored, all with a larger philosophical and spiritual meaning. And being asked to pay the money just made me earn money, made me start to take myself more seriously and move away from my minimum-wage jobs, and I gave it gladly and didn’t concern myself with where it was going.
At 21, I was defensive and confused. I was infatuated with what I thought was ‘the dark side.’ My big ambition was to be a stripper. Being in the school reminded me that I had a soul, that there was beauty and divinity in humanity, and that included me. In the school I reclaimed my innocence and my sense of wonder and I will be forever grateful for that.
I considered Bob Klein one of my great teachers. He was perceptive and gentle and appeared to be motivated by love. I was genuinely in awe of him. Others in the school had more of a life/work relationship with him, but I kept my distance, mostly because of this feeling of reverence toward him as a teacher. I saw him standing on the sidewalk once, and I said to myself ‘Bob Klein is standing on the sidewalk.’ I couldn’t get over it. It was if Christ had just landed. It’s not that people didn’t have harsh things to say to me—they did, and it was very valuable, truths that went right through me and changed me on the spot. For the most part they were not said out of meanness but out of love and I was grateful.
All that changed when I had been in the school long enough (a year, as I recall) to start doing ‘third line work’ and recruit people as I had been recruited. Then the school turned oppressive and mean. The sexism was outrageous. I was told I should do third line work in the Combat Zone in Boston ‘since you’re nothing but a whore anyway.’ Women had ‘bad hearts.’ At that time the school numbered somewhere over 50 and was very lop-sided, mostly males. The women were blamed for this. I had very close friendships with some of the women and was accused of being a lesbian.
I suspect that Sharon and Alex ran a school because they weren’t very good at anything else. Alex wrote plays that were genuinely wretched, and as a director, Sharon had all the finesse of a traffic cop. They weren’t around much in Boston during that era, because plays were being produced in New York, Alex’s ‘King Trilogy,’ a very ham-handed account of the Kennedy assassination. The actors ran around stage in silk pajamas hollering their lines at each other, and those of us in the school were assigned to sit near critics and react vocally, with gasps, swoons, and cries of delight, so the critics would think the audience was moved to tears, but mostly it sounded like we were masturbating in the audience. After the plays were over, usually about one in the morning, we would have a ‘class’ in the theater, where we were expected to shower them with praise.
What I really remember about Sharon is her meanness. Alex was just a buffoon, swollen like a tick with other people’s power and money, but Sharon was lowdown, junkyard-dog mean, and she could really do some damage. She would say something like, “there’s someone here who is really a cunt…” and then go on to lay bare exactly how this person was being a cunt, all this person’s despicable acts and motivations, and describe this person as being beneath contempt, beneath pity, just an appalling human being, and how other people’s very souls were in danger of being contaminated by this cunt, and the tension in the room would grow sharper and sharper, because of course everybody assumed she was talking about them. Then she’d come to her finale and say, “and that person is you,” look directly at me. The first time that happened, I remember a sensation of my insides turning to glass and then shattering.
Looking back 25 years, I can see that I threatened her. I was very confused, yes, but I was innocent and very open to people and experience. Despite myself, I had an independent mind that she would never be able to control and I’m sure she saw that. I wanted to believe that she was a higher being, but my mind wouldn’t go along with it. So she went after me. I was a girl in need of approval, and had she said a kind word to me, I’m sure I would still be there.
Thanks for the opportunity to share all this. I still love all the people I knew then.
Thank you for your comments-- it reminded me how exciting and new everything was when I first joined the group. It also is one of the most common traits of malignant cults-- the sense of freshness, novelty, excitement and possibility when you first join.
It often appeared that Gans felt threatened by younger women who she thought were more attractive than her-- I'm sure the fact that her husband, Alex Horn was a compulsive pussy hound added to her insecurity.
This would make Gans almost an object of pity or compassion, if it wasn't for the power she had to extend her paranoid and pathological projections onto the people in her group.
Probably due to the negative SF publicity, there seemed to be a lull or stoppage in physical abuse-- so you escaped a gang beating from the women-Maybe the lack of a physical outlet for her frustrations increased the necessity to psychologically abuse you and others.
One of my more troubling memories was of the older "student/teachers" telling us that people were out to hurt or kill her. Obviously this was a message they picked up from her and probably Alex.
It's frightening to think how easily the weird fantasies of these disturbed individuals could be transmitted to us-- yet history shows us time and time again how prevalent it is-- to turn a group of people into a mob. Perhaps this delusion of people wanting to hurt them wasn't so nuts-- submerged guilt over what they were doing to people emerging as retribution for their own heinous behavior.
As for Bob Klein-- Klein was (probably still is) extremely intelligent and perceptive-- I think his charisma is partially, if not mostly modeled on Alex Horn's poisonously manipulative "teachings", although Bob has his own style.
I've also seen him become (or pretend to be, or convince himself that he was) murderously enraged, and strike out physically against people-- I guess he "evolved" to a more subtle style of intimidation.
I've also been under his thrall-- and thinking back, remember the incredibly stupid and harmful things he's said to people, as well as feeling tremendous love and admiration for him.
On a more general note-- I think that the motivation of people, (the WHY)-- who tell "truths" -- principles that hold (or seem to) enormous wisdom and power, is as important as the "truths" (the WHAT) themselves. In other words, the evaluation of the truth of knowledge or principle often depends on why people choose to tell it (and HOW they choose to tell or convey it).
Anybody know anything about the "younger" teachers?? It seems sometimes that Sharon and Robert and the now deceased Alex Horn are just figureheads at times. The dirty work is done by their next in command - the bullying henchmen and women.
The groups must be handled by all older students and teachers being trained by Sharon And Robert. A new student may never know about the past and who is really behind the puppet theater. The older people have been fairly good soldiers all these years. The pay may keep them around for many more years.
What never ceases to amaze me is that cults and mind control abuse is far more wide spread than you would ever think. So many people have been involved in one way or another. It is a small comfort to know that we are not alone.
Check out these websites:
http://www.wanttoknow.info/index.shtml
http://www.doomers.us/forum2/index.php/topic,20090.30.html
http://www.wanttoknow.info/mindcontrol
http://www.survivorship.org/
http://www.aches-mc.org/
http://members.aol.com/SMARTNEWS/index2.html
I wanted to let everyone know the statistics for the esotericfreedom.com website:
(not the blog)
Keep spreading the word!!!!!
Total Page Loads: 18,814
Unique Visitors: 7,051
First Time Visitors: 5,842
Returning Visitors: 1,209
2008
Page Loads: 8,640
Unique Visitors: 3,557
First Time Visitors: 3,013
Returning Visitors: 544
2007
Page Loads: 10,174
Unique Visitors: 3,494
First Time Visitors: 2,829
Returning Visitors: 665
Did anyone else notice that Taylor Hodson changed their website and took all the photos and identifying information off? Amazing that they left it on for as long as they did with photos of the space where the younger class met. And photos and e-mails of all the principals who are also the principals of Sharon Gans, Inc. which is probably a multi-national corporation by this time rivaling even Blackwater in it's evil dealings...
I'm new to this blog but what I find amazing is that you are all really dancing around the truth. It is as if no one is really ready to call a spade a spade.
For example:
The truth is that Sharon only told everyone that Steve was a number 4 man so that Graves and Robert would be jealous and hurt. It's her way of controlling people. Beat them down and build them up. Public humiliation and public praise.
Anyone else?
Starlight, what truth would everybody be dancing around? That Sharon is some variety of narcissistic sociopath? Fallen into the Guru trap?
Yes, I agree, that is a pretty straighforward description of the situation.
What about naming names? Who is married to whom? Who gave up their babies to whom? Whose kids are adopted? Which marriages did Sharon create and which ones did she destroy? What about the Russian orphans? Who has Sharon slept with? Who has Alex, Robert and the others slept with? Who gave large sums of money? Where is the money? How much is there really?
The dark secrets...
I just thank my lucky stars I got out when I did. I remember how states were manipulated when you were considered awake or asleep or #1#2#3 man. These are the hazards of being a multiplicity and falling into the wrong hands....dangerous business.
Starlight, It is said that teachers do things for the affect it will have on certin students. Is this guru gone mad or something I can not see. Surely Steve is not a balanced man....at least not the last time I saw him he was as minipulated as I was.... You are liked one day and in the dog house the next, gee how I hated that. Is it true that my being attracted those experiences? A puzzlement.
I remember cringing when I was in school at the talk of the "sleeping dead" on the "outside" in life. It seemed coarse and unintelligent to me even then. A lack of true love or compassion... and it always seemed farfetched to consider that these people immersed in life were doomed to feed the moon and live lives devoid of meaning. It was weird how the discussion was always framed with a disclaimer "oh no, we are not judging people in life for not having magnetic center"--but the contempt was so profound and pervaisive it really, really bothered me. This superiority was contstant in school and I believe very much embedded in the whole idea of a "conscious hierarchy" (the anti-democracy stance). On paper this concept actually makes sense. Democracy is a lie in so many ways. But I think human nature just caves in to the temptation of superiority and power. In school it was clear that those higher up were somehow better. They were respected, they had worked harder, had stronger beings, etc. All of this was fine to me, but there was always something more--a creepiness that I could not put my finger on. A feeling that you were supposed to bow down before them in a very public sort of way... A lot of lip service was always given to the idea that the teachers were simply the "older students" and not to be considered superior in any way. I have heard teachers talk the talk of humility but did not see much evidence of this. And deep down I know that this whole superiority thing (i.e., I felt superior from my connection to this secret school and knowlege) is a part of what kept me in school for so long and it troubles me.
Because of all of this, in this discussion I would like to encourage us all to remember that those people we are discussing who are still in school are just as we were in the past--they are to be pittied and hopefully we can have some compassion and struggle against the tendancy to judge or criticize them. This is hard for me as I am angry. But really I must take a good share of the responsibility here I feel. And I don't want to now judge them in the same way that I am sure they are judging me. Two wrongs certainly don't make a right. Right?
I agree with the previous writer in regards to judgement. I have taken respondsibility for the years invested and will continue to learn about our situation as human beings here on this planet. We are prey to vanity, superiority power and so many other features that make us lose sight of the way..
The ongoing self-flagellation of a number of the post-ers here turns my stomach, because it perpetuates and legitimizes the deeply cynical and manipulative perspective of Sharon and her henchpeople, when all it is and ever has been is bloodsucking and abuse. "Multiplicity," "features," "states," "vanity" -- these are all code-words in the special language that the charlatans who run the scam called "school" used to oppress and take advantage of you. They don't refer to anything real -- at least not in the way that your "teachers" meant them. There's nothing wrong with any of you, and there never has been. Sharon and her ilk can sniff out old unhealed wounds the way a dog can sniff out a buried soup bone. The self-doubt and sense of "yearning" that result from such wounds are exactly what school recruiters are trained to hone in on and exploit. If you were (or are) in school, chances are you're very intelligent, very sensitive, and very, very hurt by something or someone in your past. Despite a lot of lip-service, school will do *nothing* to help you because it depends on your woundedness to keep you coming back night after night, year after year, in a posture of abject submission. I agree with starlight -- out with all the dark secrets. These sociopaths deserve to be unmasked, so that everyone can see who they really are and what they're really up to. Hassin and the various anonymouses and others who still feel compelled to describe themselves, their experience, and the world in "work" terms -- have some self-respect! Your lack of it was what made you easy prey in the first place.
For some of us the WHOLE of the experience of school was a mixed bag. Not all terrible in other words, but mixed--with many wonderful moments and much learned, along with all the awful stuff.... For me, this was the hard truth to come by--that it was so mixed. Of course this is a big part of what made it so hard to leave for many years.
Yes, wounds make you easy prey but yearning does not come only from wounds--it can come from strength too. Yes, we were mistreated, to say the least. But I personally know for myself that my attraction to this school was not ONLY from weakness--lack of direction or self respect. It was also because of a very real desire for something wonderful, magical and transcendental in this life--a love of real ideas in short. For me, many of these ideas exist as truths beyond this corrupt school. I am not ashamed for being attracted to this school for this very reason. We all have individual journeys here and an individual process for healing. For me, it involves recognizing all that was bad, yes, but also attempting to keep and use what was good. It is sometimes a confusing and difficult process, but this is what has been most useful for me.
Proper digestion has to do with eating and eliminating. Why does you stomach turn when hearing that others have been able to take what was good and have now gone on. Why habour such negativity and anger. It's not good for you. It has all been said.
If you grew up in Prague and survived Terezin, would you speak German for the rest of your life?
"If you grew up in Prague and survived Terezin, would you speak German for the rest of your life?"
That depends-- could you speak it before?
I am a certified 4.417 Man, on the rise. I have evaluated your comments, without the judgement you all seem beholden to here, and have the following commentary for your reflection.
It is extremely rare to find a "real" blog.
You love your unnecessary blogging.
A lower blog cannot read (indeed, cannot even see) a higher blog.
Plato and Shakespeare were blogs.
All blogs require shocks from inner blogs as they progressively awaken to their fully realized BLOGhood.
Have you yet seen that YOU are not a blog?
I don't want any one else to get trapped in this school...simple as that. For those who see this site who are considering getting involved or those already in who are questioning its methods and want to leave, read on, ask your questions- demand real answers. Ask why you cannot speak to those who have left to get another perspective. Ask why so many are upset by having their money taken, having endured abuses of every kind imaginable over time. Realize that when you are a younger student, you are somewhat protected. They want and need you there. This ends. You do not even notice what is happening to you or where you are really going...you lose perspective. You are adults- free to make up your own minds. Seek real truth. Ask why so many that were there for so many years are writing now- to you- to help you so that you do not make similar mistakes. Just ask your questions in class...do you ever get a real answer back??? Ask if your relationship with your sustainer is really "personal"...ask where the money has gone- for all of these years, all of them. Ask why many of the older women or men are all divorced or single without relationships...Ask why those who are married have only married each other in the older class. Ask why so many outside relationships are discouraged in school. If you have no other connections, they have you, pure and simple. You will be owned. No one thinks this is possible because no one thinks that they could fall for such a trap as they are "awakening", working on themselves...sadly, it is a very slow manipulation that feeds on this very concept. Power over others- and money.
They did not invent the ideas...they have taken them and distorted some, not all, which is what makes it hard. The ideas are clearly beautiful. But you do not have to "do the work" to teach the work. These are skills honed over 40+ years.
If you feel something- anything- is just plain wrong but you can't wrap your arms around it, leave. Just leave, before it is too late.
If you want to stay...stay knowing you will slowly be unable to have another perspective. It is a mind game. Have the courage to have your own mind. Question. It is a human right. If you sense anger or any form of humiliation for having asked your questions...leave.
If you are reading this, you are in the younger class. The older class is not allowed to read any information on the internet...they will do as they are told because the consequences and public humiliation will be too much to bear. They will not even be able to disclose to anyone that they have read it. Isn't that frightening in and of itself???
there must be someone monitoring this site...from time to time probably one older student...men in the iron masks
Well, if some older "student" is reading this, I hope (s)he's being entertained.
I'd be amused if they assigned someone to read this blog and that person, realizing they were being conned by Gans et al., left the group.
And, Shadow, did you know that most so-called "microblogs" used to be full sized blogs, before they blew their chance to evolve and, as punishment by higher beings, were physically shrunk to a tiny size? When you think about it, this certainly puts Twitter in a new light.
AA
Happily out of OSG and tweeting as popejephei
Been a while - I've enjoyed catching up, glad to see what looks like so many beginning to open up, have a truly 'safe' forum for their inner selves, to share experiences.
It seems like there are a lot of new people - it would be interesting and helpful if more people would create a screename - it's still anonymous, but would identify your personal voice - one more step out of the group!
A couple of things interested me - Anonymous who wrote about nightmares - wow, yeah, more to worry if you haven't had them - accepting the reality will work itself out on all levels of your body and consciousness - the nightmares will go away, dreams of school may occur, but you will have a sense of calm, power, control - however your helaing translates. The nightmares are a common symptom of PTSD, which most cult escapees suffer for some period of time - be open to examining your experience and your feelings about it,having learned of the other side of the Janus face, and it will pass over time - I promise. I've had contact with many ex-school people, through the years we've been out, and have shared or witnessed many of their apres-school experiences. Those who repress or completely deny suffer longer.
I was also interested in Starlight's comments about giving more specific information on younger teachers, history of teacher marriage switcheroos, affairs, who Alex and Sharon have fucked, who have they ignored or kicked out, or driven insane (yes), or caused extreme physical health damage to (yes - even a vague story of someone who died of a heart attack at the old NY space, or had a bad one and was unceremoniously dropped at the emergency room of St. Vincent's. So why not tell these stories?
Frankly, I think a lot more of them should be told, who the hell is being protected? Fred Mindel? Minerva Taylor? Steve Burzi? Terry Christgau? Lorraine and Michael Imlay? Kathleen? Janine? Paul? Most of them are thugs, or so craven for Sharon or Robert's favor they have abnegated their souls. AND YET:
There's a level, as Jellybean said, where someone is also a victim - do you expose which children are adopted? Suppose the kids find out? Many of them talk to each other all the time about the cult anyway - At what level is someone complicit in Sharon's weaving of her sticky web, and at what point are they deluded that they must 'pay' for all they've been given - and maybe they got their dreams - a family, a spouse, more money than they'd thought, the discovery and enjoyment of a talent with success (you writers and painters and theater people - WHY HAVE YOU ACCEPTED SUCH SMALL AMOUNTS OF SUCCESS FOR YOUR AMAZING TALENTS? Little Irish societies, and theaters in flushin are great, but don't kid yourselves. Getting yourselves to Edinburgh is also terrific - not hard to do, really - why is it that Thomas DeHArtmann never composed his own work after meeting Gurdjieff and working on the Dances?)
So - here's the ethical moral question, which, in a land of free speech, we can only answer for ourselves - if I say what I know, or name details or names, does it punish the innocent, or expose the guilty? Then write what you want - as I've obviously revealed a number of names here, I drew my own moral line - not that I'm done. I've long thought that we all still live in fear for much too long and it gives them too big a piece of us. I know for a fact that Sharon has no altruistic intentions, she is entirely selfish and psychotic, and oh yeah by the way she hates teachings. she glorifies herself by convincing herself that everybody needs her guidance, and that is why she 'helps' them.
I think this fear is why many people stay so academic in their posts, and I also think (yes, really) that many people shy away from this painful absolute truth about what we thought was our home, our community, our friends like family, and the people who ran it who were supposed to have our interests at heart, and fundamentally have no heart, except selfish and twisted ones.
Hey, I'm all for positive, and I celebrate the true friends I had, the work I did on myself, which was obstructed by the way I was treated by teachers, but clear when my few real loving friends helped me, and when I examined and struggled with myself.
It makes me sad that it seems so few from the New York classes have left, and that the 'damage control' seems to be so effective.
Their were so many good and talented and sad people there, who seemed so chained, slaves who have accepted their lot. There is a person there I brought (recruited) who is still there, who returned one of my calls after I left and hissed with hatred that I should stay away from her - like all women in that class, she'd become heavy like Sharon, unhealthy and pasty from the schedule, since she'd been there she'd gone downhill in every area of her life, they constantly beat her up emotionally, but their is the victim's loyalty - and she's stuck until that fat disgusting old bitch dies and the remnants fall apart. Should her name go up here? No. But her story is just as sad - maybe one day she'll read it and recognize herself.
Ghostdog,
You said a lot, gave me a lot to think about. i left school several years ago, and I've been reading this blog and the other websites, but I still have so many unanswered questions. your right - do we protect the innocent or the guilty by keeping silence and keeping secrets? I guess I felt for a long time that I made promises to be 'sealed', and I wanted to honor those promises. But they didn't keep the contract, did they? So many things they said were not what they did. I was shocked and very upset to learn that sustainers gave weekly reports in on their conversations. I was told by my dear sustainer, who I loved and relied on all my years in school, was telling her higher-ups all of my confidences, all of the intimate details of my life!
Who were those people who did the movie? Wasn't that guy who taught with that guy Terry involved with all of that? Chris McNealy? He was such a son of a bitch. He married that bizarre bossy woman. I remember that Chris and Terry taught an acting class that we were all supposed to take, but they spent all the time talking at us, it was so boring. Then they would hold 'work' meetings in the class until one of the women told Sharon and they got in trouble - maybe they should start their own group.
longtime -
Chris McNally - married Leanne Clapper, who 'produced' and 'directed' the movie. apparently she got into a lot of trouble over the whole stink with it and was kicked out for a while, but is back with her head even farther up Sharon's major accomplishment, her butt. Yeah, I think it's a fine line who you talk about here, but those two treated people very badly, and loved the power of position in the school far too much. So many of those upper-level students are bullies given a platform. Not all - that poor guy David, the big guy, irish name - he just seemed to have been ground down into unquestioning compliance - I understand he gave her a lot of his trust fund.
You're talking about David Fitzpatrick....he did give alot of money that was family money. He was a sweetheart easily ground up by the more powerful. Like a little boy who wanted so much to please mother. What comes over us? Like a blanket over your own mind and instincts. Deer in the headlights. Not right for me as much as I love the ideas. Power is so dangerous.
I have a question for everyone (or anyone who really knows...). Can some people speak specifically to the point of how intentional the treatment of the students by the teachers is and how they viewed us?
I am clear that there was a tremendous amount of mind/power games, wrong and harmful pressure, humiliation, etc. etc, Even though I did not directly experience a lot of this, I saw it happening to others. What I am not clear about is how people here are saying that it is all due to very devious greedy manipulative behaviors on the part of the teachers. That they were quite knowingly and cruelly playing us. Does this include all of the teachers? Or is it mostly only Sharon? Are there some teachers who are, albeit seriously compromised and misguided, sincerely thinking their actions are for the good of the students? Does anyone really know? Any "insider" information that could shed light on this topic would be very helpful to me in sorting through my experiences and making peace with it all.
Sheep are easily led. The power of suggestion is enormous. The goods that were exchanged for money and time were beautiful ideas taught by beings who appeared to be more developed. There was at one time probably a wish for the creation of a real school and it appears to have deviated off in another direction. Surely it became a big money maker with all the people hungry for whe wares they were selling. There are so many aspects to this as I attempt to relate to the previous writer. Another part of the problems is the willingness of the sheep(us) to forget or surrender our own consciences and object to things when we thought they were off because we want to be part of the herd. Fear of being alone with ourselves is another aspect. So teachers/older students can have their way with us and collect money. Greed and covetting of these high ideas entered into that wish for a real school and work group. I do not think anyone intentionally does things in the name of evil on the contrary things were done thinking it was good. This is one opinion. Hope it helps you.
the issue of "intentionality" is a good one, for sure-- but this issue may be too large and noble for the people in question.
perhaps it's more like this: alongside the initial infatuation with the ideas and their purveyors, there is always the attraction to and-- in too many cases-- the lust for power. that means that all these teachers and older students are rather ordinary people.
the other side of it is that the neophytes in thrall of the ideas and their purveyors are all too willing to put the teachers and older students on pedestals because... that is what people do! everybody plays this game and nobody escapes unscathed, unfortunately.
but the biggest harm comes to those who are caught up in the power. sharon first and foremost, followed by her minions. they have expunged what humanity they once possessed by virtue of this failing.
"power corrupts"--now that's what i call a law! and a person has to be pretty damned special to bother wrestling with it let alone overcome it, so far as such a deed is possible.
on this point i remember david as a sympathetic person, and steve too. the reason is that they both exhibited a better sense of self-awareness than anybody else concerning the issue of power. it seemed to me that they struggled with it.
the rest of them didn't.
Power corrupts....indeed. I suppose that's why it is a dangerous business,soul development....if that is what it was. I must say that we were all warned at the beginning of our "experiment" that the ideas can be dangerous. I see alittle of what is meant.
the ideas may or may not be valid or sound-- this is an open and fair question. as to their dangerousness, that's just a lame excuse that essentially allows for their abuse and distortion by their purveyors.
by any measure one can't regard those who occupy the inner circle of that organization-- the purveyors of these ideas-- as anything but wretched. if all they are capable of is deceit in the pursuit of power and money (with a heavy dose of sado-masochism and brutality along the way), it would stretch believability to imagine that they have not harmed themselves deeply and in many cases at this stage irreparably.
in fact they are not even ordinary, let alone remarkable or extraordinary. they are less than ordinary-- they are abnormal.
why?
because both sharon gans and alex horn (i know--he's dead) are psycholgically or mentally ill-- abnormal. that means that following them will eventually make one ill as well.
of course now that horn is gone forever his students will hopefully disperse if they are clever, but some will gravitate towards gans' group to bring fresh "energy" and "being" ($$$$) to the ongoing farce.
I want to say that I agree with a previous poster that I remember David as a kind person who seemed to struggle with the issues of power at hand. I believe his heart was probably in the right place most of the time.
Steve, unfortunately did not leave the same impression on me at all, although I do not have any particularly bad memories of him as I do of other certain teachers.
These are, of course, just my own personal experiences and impressions.
By the way, does anyone know why Steve left (or was kicked out) several years ago?
Commentary 326: There is an "I" in Self-Will
(from Beelzebub's Blogs to His Grandson)
To begin this as a sincere inquiry, one must first acknowledge oneself as a multitude - that is, as a kind of blogiplicty. One may, with examination, come to recognize oneself initially as a 1, 2 or 3 blog. These types are blogchanical in nature and, therefore, require extensive blogservation over an indefinite period of time. The duration of time required in this practice is to be established and then denied willy-nilly by the eldest blogger. This is entirely by design, and so one is advised to "get used to it." (p. 1142 The BahBLOGavita)
Yes, I agree. The mechanical workings of the school as a business are by design. Seems pretty obvious at first or second glance that there isn't any graduation or promotion to a higher school coming. But the organized study of great material and the network of support for aims is useful for a time.
Does anyone know why that acting teacher, who seems like a decent guy, colludes with these people?
which acting teacher? There were at least 2 I remember Terry and Chris. Both seemed like reasonable beings. But caught up for sure.
no, the older one...round, happy face, maybe he doesn't run the class anymore.
Acting teachers?
The main one for years was Jordan Charney. After Jordan and Sharon parted ways, Terry Christgau (who teaches at Dwight) and Chris McNally took over.
Do you need to ask why?
They are as brainwashed as anyone else involved in this group. Their lives, wives, ex-wives, children, step-children, etc. are so enmeshed with the group that it is probably almost impossible for them to disconnect themselves. To say nothing about money. Their financial lives are so tied up with the group that to separate would be a serious hardship. Do the math for yourself. How much money does Terry get to go up to Boston to teach?
I'm sure they know the truth somewhere in their hearts. Something in a man or woman never lies. There must be some very intense denial going on...
So what do you mean by "parted ways"? I always liked Jordan very much -- but I could never figure out what his understanding was of Sharon and her odd school . . . He came to Christmas parties, took money off people that Sharon shepherded to his acting classes . . . Did he know what was going on? If so, what did he think about it? Did he and Sharon have some sort of falling out? In my experience, he was the only "outsider" (neither student nor teacher) allowed into school classes and events, so it would be interesting to know what he thought. If anybody knows.
By "parted ways" I mean that he is no longer teaching acting classes and has not been going to Christmas parties either. He has also apparently moved out of the apartment that he has lived in for many years on lower Fifth Avenue that was leased in Sharon's name. Why? I'm not totally sure. You could always call him up and ask him.
Sharon has always had a number of people who hung around on the periphery who were personal friends of hers who she introduced to students for various reasons so that they could make some money off of us: Jackie Prete the yoga teacher and Sandra (I can't remember her last name) the writing teacher. It was Sharon's way of helping her friends make money. I know that extraordinary efforts were always made so that Jackie and Sandra didn't know what our relationship to Sharon was but Jordan knew the whole story.
I think also that for Sharon, Jordan was a great guy to hang around in bars with and get drunk when Alex was not available.
I am sure that money flowing keeps any denial in check. Particularly when you are not skilled in any way to make such a good income. Jordon probably enjoyed the money also as did all the "friends" who hang around and wait for a bone of some kind. It's the Emporers' New Clothes..... Who wants to stand alone? The affects of greed?
What's the hook here? Everything suggests (demands) an IRS raid and public shut down - still, educated people continue to participate, or otherwise sanction the organization passively.
Unfortunately, the leaders have taken steps in recent years to "legalize" the financial matters. If you look at the financial filings which are linked to on the main Esoteric Freedom web-site, you will see that OSG is incorporated for the purpose of offering "classes" for money. In addition, a number of years ago, tuition payments were changed from cash to check. This allows sufficient transparency so that any investigation of the group will show accountable income in exchange for an intangible service.
While we may know that what is going on is unethical and predatory, on the surface it is legal. Of course, once that money is in their hands, who knows how it is distributed and manipulated? I cannot speak for the legality of that. However, I suspect that it is nothing overtly illegal, as that would contradict the whole point of the steps they have taken to make the operation stand up to an investigation. These people are not stupid! They have learned over the years how to run their operation so as to stand up to scrutiny.
On a related note, since the acting class was taken over by Terry, he has encouraged some, but not all, of the students to pay by check, which is different from the deal with Jordan who was paid in cash. My speculation is that the check payments again are to provide a paper trail to appear proper to the IRS, while the cash remains under the table. I am not sure whether Terry keeps the check money and passes on the cash to Sharon, or vice-versa. It does seem to confirm a long-time suspicion of mine that Sharon gets a cut of the acting income (and, probably, CR fees and the maintenance fee, as when you look at the numbers, both seem larger than they need to be for the stated purpose.)
This may be one reason for the switch from Jordan to Terry, although not, I think, the only one. There was an incident which was witnessed by the Billerica acting class where after a performance of the "Elektra Project" Jordan contradicted and argued with Sharon about the future direction of the project. It was quite shocking at the time to see someone standing up to Sharon and holding his own against her. Jordan taught one more "term" of the acting class, presumably while Sharon mulled over what to do. He was then replaced by Terry.
Does anybody know if ALL the teachers (not acting teachers, but teacher teachers) are directly paid a cut of the student's tuition, or does this go directly to Sharon? In other words, as they saw us sitting there in front of them... as they urged us not to leave and to stay and work to grow a soul ... they were really seeing $$$$ signs before their eyes.
Is it really as simple (and grotesque) as that?
Glad to hear about Jordon standing up for himself and the total domination mode of Sharon Gans.....Terry is making an income now that he never could have so he will be the good soldier.
The older people all have the same accountant.....sure it all looks legal.
In terms of younger teachers getting a cut of the cash flow, while I cannot say for sure, I doubt it. I don't know anything about Fred, Cynthia and the New York Gang, but I expect Robert certainly gets a large piece of the Boston money. Beyond that, the younger teachers in Boston were/are often struggling with money just like most of the rest of us. This includes one female who was at one time married to Robert. You might think she at least would have made out, but it seems not!
Let me amend my previous comment. The New Hampshire properties which are used for CR are owned by one of the younger teachers. He certainly is benefitting by having that mortgage paid by the CR fees.
OK, still wondering what keeps the group together, money may motivate a few but what about the rest? Is it simply, tragically, weakness of character and self-esteem?
Unless things have changed in the last 10 years or so, the younger teachers do not get $$$ -- or much more than the occasional small amount -- from teaching. At a certain point they stop paying tuition, because they've started "paying in a different coin." Money is certainly NOT the glue that holds the group together, or not the only glue. The more responsibility you take on in the group, the more intense the pressure, and the more complicated the entanglements. Orchestrated or manipulated marriages, children, divorces, adoptions, etc. can make the entanglements inextricable -- or seem that way. The strongest glue, possibly, is terror. Robert can be very intimidating and threatening. There's always the threat, for instance, that your life will be ruined, that you will be an complete failure as a human being and that everyone will know it, if you don't continue to do whatever's asked of you, immediately and without any bitching or hesitation, no matter how outrageous the imposition on your time, feelings, family, or work life. The fact that this threat is somewhat vague and amorphous makes it even more menacing.
It's true that the one younger teacher owns that NH property. It's not clear how much he benefits, however. Sharon and Co. apparently suck up to him because he makes a lot of money from his business. I wouldn't be surprised if he's been pressured to give a significant portion of his income to school.
There is also the occasional miracle of insight, transformative sacrifice of ego, and heroic effort to confront a personal weakness. This intermittent reinforcement of real psychological events is a powerful motivator for weak and strong alike.
Of course, the party will immediately claim credit for all individual gains, sealing the fate of those unable to sense the true source of their success.
The secret they work to protect (with warnings about "stealing," for heaven sake) is that a teacher's power of influence is provided by the student. Deferment of one's will and the projection of supernatural confidence on another is dangerous business.
You're certainly correct there. The Amnesty International definition of the behavior patterns in psychological terrorism is chillingly apt:
- Isolation of victim
- Induced debility-producing exhaustion
- Monopolization of perceptions, including obsessiveness and possessiveness
- Threats, such as death to self, victim, family or friends, or sham executions
- Degradation, including humiliation, denial of victim's power, and verbal name-calling
- Drug or alcohol administration
- Altered states of consciousness produced by a hypnotic state
- Occasional indulgences that keep hope alive that the abuse will cease
This litany ought to sound familiar. The last point is especially apropos. Isolation, exhaustion, threats, humiliation, and the occasional ostentatious (and short-lived) display of sensitivity and affection. The classic pattern of psychological violence.
How many children have been leveraged and held hostage by mothers subverted against fathers (or visa versa)? There must be grown men and women now who could tell stories about their childhood on the inside.
Don't know about that. There was that strange occurrence involving a Soviet waitress, several thousand rubles, and someone called "rd." Are there any new details available?
soul searching... anybody out there? recent refugee, wondering where my life went.
Yes, there are many of us out here and we are looking forward to supporting you in any way that we can.
I can say that after many years, I am still soul searching as well.
Where did my life go? As a friend so aptly said to me (not a direct quote): "I have to believe that where I am now is where I was meant to be." It is all part of the journey.
Please respond to:
esotericfreedom@safe-mail.net
Looking forward to talking with you!
(I'm sorry but I can't seem to get this to be able to accept a post by any one other than Anonymous - this is Ashiata Shiemash.)
It is a wonderful shock...to be out on your own. Life is so much bigger and awesome than the world of the "group". Take what you have learned and run. Fear is from the group mentality..our faculties for living our lives are God given not Sharon,Robert,or any other follower. You have support here and there is help that comes that we could never have planned for...from our own efforts...you'll see. Hassin
thank you, good to hear kind words. I'v held my silence sacred and it has been precious to me but now i want to talk to some of my family but can't think what to say or how it will sound. i think i feel a little ashamed of it, very strange how things turn around.
I never spoke to my family about why I missed big family events or what I was doing....it was too complicated to explain. Of course my older kids who are now grown know alot the younger ones know less and do not really care. It may not be necessary to speak much everyone has history...suprisingly not many people care anyway. Silence is really safe haven. It's good we can support each other with life after the group experiences, it really is more profitable that wondering what they did with all that money!
"I have come to believe over and over again, that what is most important to me must be spoken, made verbal and shared, even at the risk of having it bruised or misunderstood.... My silences had not protected me. Your silence will not protect you.... and while we wait in silence for that final luxury of fearlessness, the weight of that silence will choke us. The fact that we are here and that I speak these words is an attempt to break that silence and bridge some of those differences between us, for it is not difference which immobilizes us, but silence. And there are so many silences to be broken."
-Audre Lorde (The Transformation of Silence into Language and Action, Sister Outsider)
What is most important can not be spoken...read about mystics and sages like Rumi.... Speaking may be helpful for some healing and direction however let's not be fooled into thinking that anyone in the talking world really cares for you or me for more than amoment. Speak if you must but remember youself and where you are and who is listening. We are in the mad house as Rumi says.
Anonymous - I have been out for over a year, and still have not found the courage to talk to my family about these matters. I have lately been feeling it necessary to do so and have the same fears as you.
Unlike Hassin, I don't believe that nobody cares about us for more than a minute. I am sure my family, at least my siblings will be supportive, yet I still have not taken the step to talk. My father died recently and now there is no chance to put things back on a right footing with him. I wish I still had that chance, as I did some things under the influence of school that I would not have done (or needed to do) otherwise!
Sobering thoughts...thank you for reminding me about the sacred and very individual/personal aspect to all of this. I think that there is no one right answer to the question of silence. I personally find that talking does help somewhat, but then it really does not give me the level of understanding I crave because no one I speak to about this experience can ever really understand it...even if they sincerely want to try.
Has anyone had experiences speaking to a therapist about the group? I have someone I really like and trust and am tempted. Not talking about it feels like a wall of insincerity between us, actually. But once that topic is on the table so to speak I fear that it will be a problem...
misunderstood and focused on in a way that won't be useful to me... Anyone have any thoughts on this question? You input will be greatly appreciated.
It was an important step for me to confide in a few close friends and family members. I have not told or felt the desire to share it again for a long time, even with my new spouse. It doesn't feel like a secret anymore, just something very personal and private.
It helped to talk about it with a few reliable and trustworthy people, during the first year after leaving. The reconciliation process continues and may one day call for more open communication, but not now.
thanks for the opinions. guess I;ll just have to take a chance to find out. it is amazing how strong the force of this promise feels even after everything that happened. thank you again.
btw any feelings about the election>
to the anonymous that has just freed him/herself: this may sound oddly comforting but you have to realize that your situation is not unique, as one look at the rick ross website will show you. what is difficult to accept is that the heads of the organization are basically high-functioning sociopaths which is why they are able to successfully prey upon the young (age-wise and "at heart") and trusting. after all, the ideas are quite attractive-- whether actually valid or not.
all that said, nobody in your circle of acquaintance, be it friends or family, will ever really understand what you have experienced except those who have also been there. this is not a cause for despair, though you may discover that after a few attempts to relate your experience you will end up being somehow disappointed.
after a while, when time has healed you (as it surely will) and you're living your life on your own terms, all this will seem like an unpleasant dream and little more. in the meantime this blogging thing ain't half-bad!
anon,
half-bad is way less than half right. s/he is suffering from lack of good folks, and that is not funny. to this responder, I say "keep looking, there are good people who do get it." Our shared experience is not "esotericism" is any real sense. The construct has substance only to the degree that the participant has substance. Therefore, fear nothing in your instinct to confide in another, there are so many reflective people in your circle - otherwise, how would you have been attracted to this atmosphere to start with.
anon,
half-bad is way less than half right. s/he is suffering from lack of good folks, and that is not funny. to this responder, I say "keep looking, there are good people who do get it." Our shared experience is not "esotericism" is any real sense. The construct has substance only to the degree that the participant has substance. Therefore, fear nothing in your instinct to confide in another, there are so many reflective people in your circle - otherwise, how would you have been attracted to this atmosphere to start with.
i do not know if we are referring to the same poster. the multiple anonymous posters should try numbering themselves if they do not have a screen name. it is confusing. i am responding to the person saying he is soul-searching and wondering where his life went and/or the same or different poster who has claimed to have held his silence sacred.
my apologies if the previous post comes across as unfeeling. the fact is that down the line independence of self promotes healing and freedom. initially this cannot be so and one must in fact be dependent on others while in such a fragile state, like somebody just out of surgery. but there is a potential danger in relying too much on others after a certain amount of time passes, as one might incrementally slip from healing to indulgence. i am not saying that will happen here, but it is a real possibility that should not be dismissed.
and while sharing confidences with friends and family may be a relief, there is nobody save those who were there in that situation who will really "get it" to ones own satisfaction. in other words, friends and family will not heal you, but the act of ones sharing with them might. it is the difference between sympathy and empathy. the former helps somewhat but the latter is the act that really counts for something. friends and family provide sympathy but only your fellows who have also left can truly empathize.
at any rate, it may be comforting to anybody who has just left that there is light at the end of the tunnel that is not an oncoming train but rather ones own bright future. its important to hold both perspectives in mind, don't you think?
and to the poster who has just freed himself and to whom i responded, you will find powerful allies here i am sure of it.
I love this reference to Alex Horn as "Faux Fourth Way":
http://www.usedesoteric.com/cat_FFW.php
anyone read anything inspiring lately?
In-A-Mirror Said:
I find inspiration in the writings of Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. The first thing I picked up is "Peace is Every Step"
Jellybean says:
One of my new favorites is Clarissa Pinkola Estes' Women Who Run With the Wolves. It's about the wild woman archetype - myths and fairytales. She is an excellent writer and very learned. Jung, the collective unconscious and archetypes have always resonated with me.
Lama Surya Das has a number of books. He has a very common sense way of explaining Buddhism and a lot of it rings true with the Work.
He gives classes in Boston every month or so.
I love all of Pema Chodrun's books.
Jack Kornfield has a book called A Path With Heart (A Guide Through the Perils and Promises of Spiritual Life)and it has an excellent chapter entitled: The Emperor's New Clothes: Problems with Teachers.
Michael Harner's The Way of the Shaman and Tom Cowan's Shamanism as a Spiritual Practice for Daily Life are great. Check out the Foundation for Shamanic Studies.
If you are a gardener try Machaelle Small Wright's Perelandra Garden Workbook.
Parker Palmer's Let Your Life Speak has some great messages. It's a fast read.
Also, the Dalai Lama's book An Open Heart is great.
I could go on but I will stop here for now. There is a lot of amazing stuff out there. Let me know what you think of these.
ah.. Sarah Palin?
I recently heard Erik Weihenmayer speak- a truly inspirational man on every level. He can actually change how you think just by his example. (He has been on the more national circuit a bit but worth it if anyone gets a chance to hear him or see a documentary of his efforts. He is a blind rock climber who has scaled El Capitan and climbed Mt Everest- it is more how he thinks that just boggles your mind...also incredibly funny.
I hope that I am not in complete imagination to think that Obama represents the possibility of truth working for goodness. The over riding notion in my being is that there is little hope for this sorry lot (us) with out the intervention of a higher level. However I am not sure what that means or how it would happen. Surely the likes of Bush and Palin with their foul pretences of being hooked up to JC...turns my stomach and is great cause for concern. Barack appears to have good balls for lack of better words. I hope if I am right,he wins the race which I am afarid is rigged anyway and evil does not rise up to slay him. What I think and wish for has consequences that I have learned. I do think the sense of hopelessness has come alot from the influence of the group all the years of beating down and spending so much money being broke and down. Agreeing with Alex Horns bleek outlook. Anyway I hope Barack wins....
Yes, I also have hopes for Obama.
I have less hope for the people of this country who are so passive they would rather allow themselves to be rapped and pillaged rather than go out in the street to protest a stolen election, 2 illegal wars, and a big-business hold-up.
Still, if he wins by a huge margin it could be enough of a shock to our collective spirit to create other possibilities. He has my vote and my prayers for safety, courage and wisdom.
OK folks, it's all right to be engaged in this election - level of life to be sure, but it is our life. Let's have some spirited comments on this historic moment.
This election has captured world wide attention. He appears to be upright and gracious. He represents the working class and the American story. As mentioned by others I fear for his safety. The election has gotten a new generation involved. There is a new feeling in the air...can we trust it? Leaders come and go but he is different. McCain took his hat off to him in an unexpected way as if Baracks' way had rubbed off on him. Could his way have an effect on the age old fighting nations with territory disputes? Will he deal with the reality of hunger in this world. Will he help us become our brothers keeper and consider thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Do I/we expect too much and caught is this wave of excitement about hope and yes we can.... I will pray for him and send him love and good energy. I sure hate the born again creaps of the past 8 years. I am trying to keep all this at a reasonable distance as I don't buy many of these goods any more but find it interesting.
Wow. Pretty quiet out there, considering the gravity of the cultural moment.
Obama?
Ah, it is wonderful to be young and idealistic. Y'all make me smile.
Back in the Stone Age, when I was with Alex and Sharon and Bob and all, we were obsessed with proving that the Right Wing Conspirators were taking over the World.
Who do you all think Tyrant; Wolf; Fox; Snake; Weasel (I played Weasel :) ), etc. were? The Democrats and the Left Wing early Obamanations?
No, my friends - your vilified teachers believed that Reagan was the anti-Christ and that all that was Good in the World was going to come about through Conscious People understanding the Evils of Corporate Greed and the Goodness of Our Mother the Earth...
In other words, All that Sharon and Bob preached back then was the equivalent of Obama politics and promises.
It is so funny that you seem to miss that point.
That being said, even though I love President Bush; voted for McCain; and find President elect Obama to be a complete cipher - we do, indeed, live in a Great Moment in History and have once more proved that the United States of America is the greatest nation on this planet...
I trust that the President elect does not have the strength of his convictions and will cheerfully abandon all of his Democrat Leftists in order to secure his place in history.
At least... I hope so.
You are kidding- or you're a thimble-headed boob. But at least you're breathing and have an opinion.
ps, please don't do leave your hovel - you're a danger to sidewalk.
Thanks for participating.
I have found reading "The Limits of Power" by Andrew Bacevich to be useful these days.
Anonymous said...
"You are kidding- or you're a thimble-headed boob. But at least you're breathing and have an opinion.
ps, please don't do leave your hovel - you're a danger to sidewalk.
Thanks for participating."
I don't suppose that you have any supporting datum or opinions to support your witty repartee... ?
No?
Ah well - You're welcome.
I don't try to explain anything to those who happily claim the earth is flat - it's just too far to travel.
On a more relevant note, where are the other voices 'round here? The one thing we all presumably have in common is a curiosity in meaningful events, personal and transpersonal.
Let Obama be navel for a moment - and speak out!
How much do we have to be thankful for? It has no measure.
HH
Moishe#3 You remind me of a peacock I know who decided to become a "observent jew"...he forgot that he was still a bird. Can no longer go near your comments...elaborate with no content. Yes Happy Thanksgiving to all. God bless Obama and Michelle and all of us!
whew!
It appears to be a grand step for mankind with the election of Obama. The ever present threat of barbarism and the power of ignorance remain alive and must never be lost sight of. Somehow I think things may continue to spiral downwards in terms of life on this planet. But Obamas' the best we could have as the leader of the "free world"....
I have been away from this site - campaigning for Obama, working, starting a business, getting divorced, meeting a wonderful woman, finding & becoming involved in a church & raising teenagers - my 14 year old son asked about the "big house" & the dear friends we don't see anymore. He is upstairs on his computer looking at Ross & this site trying to answer his question "what is a cult?"
re: recent posts @ talking about the cult - As I have said before I speak openly in AA about my experiences so:
I remember
I may help someone
To bear witness
I have talked to therapists, ministers, Rick Ross and anyone else who gives a shit. EVERYONE - without exception - calls my experience - which is YOUR experience (even Moishe) a devastating trauma. We were spiritually raped. We were subjected to "high-level spiritual abuse: elaborate spying, quashing dissent, arranging marriages/divorces, adoptions, elaborate monetary demands, public humiliation, etc." (from adam magela's post here of 8/4/07)
from Amazed...(a new reader)...
I wish to say how amazed I am to have found this blog... I started out on a search for information about the writer, Rodney Collin, in a very personal quest for broadening my knowledge of matters esoteric... and have just spent the last few hours (!) reading almost your entire blog... I am nearly speechless, but in a positive and deeply moving sense... as an aspiring artist, I recently discovered a local group (S.CA) that holds meetings to discuss and share many topics pertaining to bridging spirituality and humanity...(Rodney Collin is quoted by them in a recent email...) Certainly, it could not possibly be related in any way to the group you (all) left? I sincerely hope not...
I have not yet attended a meeting, and I must say that I consider myself a fairly wise and careful, "middle-aged" person... and the organization I am interested in is not described as a "school" by any means... but, yet... your site has given me pause, as I never would have imagined that seeking esoteric spiritual enlightenment could be so subjugated by individuals as you have described...and in the manner(s) described...
Does anyone know whether these people you mention are affiliated in any way with any organization in CA now? I would rather be forewarned...
Bless you all....
I found an incredibly informative website about psychopaths and how they transform society:
http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm
in case this is useful to folks.
I know others might not feel as forthcoming, but I have been speaking out to family, friends and even newer acquantances about my experience, because I believe people need to understand the signs of cults and psychopaths. It's something that young adults ought to be taught, just as little kids are taught to look both ways before crossing the street.
I believe doing this is a powerful action-- perhaps one of the most powerful we can take.
As far as I know this group works in Boston and NY. California 20 years ago. Shoppers beware. Ideas are for sale too. Rodney Collin is a brillant teacher of the Work,studying mostly with Mr Ouspensky.
Am observing the cleaving to or from octaves.
Would love to meet in person.
Yours in knowledge,
I
This is the thing I miss about the experience, working together under objective principles. These reprobates have designed it so we fear to trust those with whom we forged so much trust.
I wish all of you the happiness you deserve and a happy new year!
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